Defiant vs. Enterprise-E (Sorry, I'm new here)

[Maxillius]

Defiant and Sovereign are of the same vintage. Both ships hit the drawing board after Wolf 359. While the Sovereign had fewer problems in development, the Defiant employs the same level of technology with the addition of pulse phasers and asymmetric warp field geometry.

Sovereigns are faster at warp, but 10(?) times longer, and at least that factor more massive than Defiants. Despite every propulsion and maneuvering system being much more powerful on the Sovereign than Defiant, there are the laws of physics to consider. The Defiant can literally dance around the Enterprise the whole time it's maneuvering at full capability.

In fact, I think the main defensive weapon of a large battlecruiser like the sovereign class is intimidation. It's big and heavily armed, with an intimidating presence about it. Smaller ships are supposed to be put off, but a Defiant commander should have the confidence to get past appearances and use his superior maneuverability.

Moot point though, since Federation ships' sensors can readily detect a Borg presence.

 

[el Chalupacabra]

Max, I see what you are saying. Yeah Defiant can out-maneuver big E...even run circles around it. But the thing is, big E has 360 degrees of phaser or torpedo coverage along x-y-z axis. She doesn't have to out-maneuver Defiant to hit her.

Simply put, size matters. Being a lot bigger with bigger, more powerful engines means you have more firepower, and stronger shields, too.

Think of it this way, its like a bird of prey going up against a fully prepared, shielded, and armed Enterprise D. It took the shields being down before the Duras sisters could fire a shot that could damage E.

Sure the Defiant would mop the floor with a BOP, and defiant would put up a far better fight against E-E, but that is the analogy that best demonstrates what I am trying to say.

 

[Subcommander R.]

And I totally never paid attention to the whole Dominion War plot. DS9 lost me when Sisko went bald and grew facial hair. *yawn*

Gasp... and you made fleet captain. Shame on you.

I implore you to go back and watch the entire Dominion War arc. Hands down the best segment of story in Trek history.

That's when things started getting interesting!

I liked the regional politics and the stationary nature of the station. Then I blinked and it was an orgy of alternate universes and a massive exceedingly-dramatic drawn out war.

It somehow reminded me of the decay of Stargate. The combination of dramatic foes and serial plots just isn't Star Trek, IMO.

The concept at first was great. A space station at a wormhole gave the writers access to any species, any power, left options for creativity open, and created a great political backstory to manage. And then they waltzed off and brought in a ship and a serial plot with lots of explosions.

How did we go from Duet to a series of special-effects episodes?

Dunno about that. Picard's one maneuver relies both on a technologically inferior opponent, and fighting in very close quarters. In a Sovereign vs. Defiant fight, it is in the Sovereign's best interest to keep the Defiant away to give the computers a chance to lock targets. Any Defiant skipper with a brain knows that his ship is small, and a small ship's best chance, indeed it's combat purpose, is close-quarters combat, so a Defiant is going to do everything it can to stay close, and I don't think there is anything a Sovereign can do short of running away to change the odds into its favor.

Best result Enterprise can hope for is escape.

To point out a simple strategy for the Enterprise: use your tractor beams to freeze up the enemy while you launch an area of effect attack with torpedos and phasers. The result is that your small, nimble, enemy is immobilized to a certain degree while the intensity of fire increases. That guarantees they will take some hits.

And who has better capacity to sustain damage? The battleship, not the escort.

This is coming down to a Captain/crew matchup. As nice as those are, the technology is pretty clear. More guns, more armor, more expendable crew, and much more size all give the Enterprise the edge.

As to tracking capabilities, its the 24th century. If we can hit a satellite in space, blow a fast-moving plane out of the sky, and shoot down ballistic missiles in flight I'm pretty sure they'll have the requisite guidance and tracking systems.

 

[T'Girl]

The Defiant can literally dance around the Enterprise

But the whole time it's dancing about, the Defiant can't target the Enterprise either. And with it's superior number of weapons, the Enterprise can blanket the arc of sky which contains the Defiant.

 

[USS Triumphant]

The Defiant can literally dance around the Enterprise

But the whole time it's dancing about, the Defiant can't target the Enterprise either. And with it's superior number of weapons, the Enterprise can blanket the arc of sky which contains the Defiant.

That isn't necessarily so, since Defiant's computers would know the pattern of her own dance and could compensate for targetting.

Which is part, btw, of what I think this should ultimately come down to: 1. If Defiant has and uses cloak, she would win the battle. 2. Otherwise, whichever ship has the best computer and sensors (I'm assuming the E-E) would win. 3. If Defiant did use cloak, it might break the scenario, since it would cause Picard to wonder when the Borg ever did that - which, again, gives an advantage to the Defiant, since they wouldn't be as hesitant.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

The Enterprise-E has a technical advantage.

The Defiant can pull the space cameras along for the ride while it commits to snazzy 180s in the heat of battle.

Impressive cinematography > specs; Defiant wins.

 

[Subcommander R.]

The Defiant can literally dance around the Enterprise

But the whole time it's dancing about, the Defiant can't target the Enterprise either. And with it's superior number of weapons, the Enterprise can blanket the arc of sky which contains the Defiant.

That isn't necessarily so, since Defiant's computers would know the pattern of her own dance and could compensate for targetting.

Which is part, btw, of what I think this should ultimately come down to: 1. If Defiant has and uses cloak, she would win the battle. 2. Otherwise, whichever ship has the best computer and sensors (I'm assuming the E-E) would win. 3. If Defiant did use cloak, it might break the scenario, since it would cause Picard to wonder when the Borg ever did that - which, again, gives an advantage to the Defiant, since they wouldn't be as hesitant.

Cloak is largely overrated. Its strategically useful, not tactically useful. When raising and lowering it you are a sitting duck. And as you must lower it before raising shields or firing, its essentially the equivalent of putting a giant bull's eye on yourself. As soon as you fire, the other guy knows where you are. So if you try to cloak again, then he knows you also have no defenses.

Tactically, a cloak gives you a 60/40 chance of getting a free shot or getting your ass blown up while decloaking.

What is the real value of a cloak? It conceals as many ships as you need from enemy sensors. That enables easy ship movements through any territory without anyone knowing. So the strategic value is that your fleet can show up at someone's base and catch them off guard. It has nothing to do with tactics, as the tactical considerations are the biggest weakness of the cloak.

Take it from me, I'm a Romulan.

 

[The Librarian]

Once again, maneuverability means nothing in this battle. We've seen the Enterprise pull off radical maneuvers itself, almost equal to anything the Defiant has done, and its phaser arrays will be able to hit no matter how much fancy flying the Defiant does because they can actively track as they fire. The Lakota demonstrated that quite well - the Defiant was zipping around all over the place and the Lakota still landed every phaser beam it fired.

 

[Maxillius]

But the Lakota still lost because the Defiant was forced to stop pulling punches. In a knock-down/drag-out brawl, given a legendary helmsman, Defiant could own any ship larger than itself simply be staying so close that only one or two phaser arrays can hit at any one time.

As for the tractor beam tactic: That will work once, if at all. A Defiant crew will know they're coming in close and if they know their opponent is experienced in the knife fight, they'll have tractor countermeasures active. Even if they let themselves be caught, the emitters become targets so that they won't be caught again.

If I were commanding a Defiant in battle, the cloak would only be used before the 1st volley. If I had to retreat it likely would be non-functional anyway, and in battle my ship with its shields down is too vulnerable.


Switching over to the Sovereign point of view, my tactic is to "Keep that little sh-t off my @$$". Do whatever it takes to keep a few kilometers between us. If she looks like she's coming in for a run, unload on her then move off. Yes, I can keep up with a few of the Defiant's moves, but my hull integrity suffers with each one and I've got a crew of 800 to look after.

 

[Subcommander R.]

But the Lakota still lost because the Defiant was forced to stop pulling punches. In a knock-down/drag-out brawl, given a legendary helmsman, Defiant could own any ship larger than itself simply be staying so close that only one or two phaser arrays can hit at any one time.

As for the tractor beam tactic: That will work once, if at all. A Defiant crew will know they're coming in close and if they know their opponent is experienced in the knife fight, they'll have tractor countermeasures active. Even if they let themselves be caught, the emitters become targets so that they won't be caught again.

If I were commanding a Defiant in battle, the cloak would only be used before the 1st volley. If I had to retreat it likely would be non-functional anyway, and in battle my ship with its shields down is too vulnerable.


Switching over to the Sovereign point of view, my tactic is to "Keep that little sh-t off my @$$". Do whatever it takes to keep a few kilometers between us. If she looks like she's coming in for a run, unload on her then move off. Yes, I can keep up with a few of the Defiant's moves, but my hull integrity suffers with each one and I've got a crew of 800 to look after.

You only need the tactic to work once. Get a lock on them at the end of a pass when they're furthest from you and it holds them down just long enough to get all 4 forward or 6 aft torpedo tubes on target along with your sixteen phasers. Then wham-o. That much firepower concentrated on such a small ship is lethal.

Again you have to consider capacity to absorb damage. 50 crew can't keep pace with damage control, and shields draw power. The size of your powerplant determines how much output you can divert to shielding. So the result is that Enterprise can afford to take heavier damage (more crew to repair it), has more muscle on its side (larger systems and powerplants, more weapons), has more speed at warp (9.975 as opposed to 9.5), and has more surface area. That is the big one, as it means a dozen hits could be taken and would be scattered over a wide area. Defiant is a small ship. That means the damage it does take will be very concentrated.

Regardless of crews, an escort is no match for a capital ship. Sorry folks, but armour, guns, and size matter.

 

[Maxillius]

If we're talking Starfleet Command 3, then yes, you're right, Defiant doesn't stand a chance. However, a "real" battle where a ship can close to mere meters, Defiant wins. Pinpoint targeting of key systems (Nacelles to knock out warp travel, weapons to stop her fight) also renders the "scattered damage" argument moot.

High warp capability just means Enterprise can run away. That's not victory.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Actually you missed the point of a short warp jump. It lets you regroup. And if the other guy follows you, you can use all the rear-facing weaponry.

Closing to meters only works if the enemy is stationary. Otherwise its a collision that would be catastrophic to both ships. Thats why, as a matter of course, you keep your distance. Unless you're going for a suicide attack.

In order to have this 'pinpoint targeting' you need to slow your attack passes to guarantee accuracy. So you can't close in to meters and magically destroy all the key systems.

So in a 'real' battle accuracy requires you to slow down and become more vulnerable. You can have fast passes that make you a hard target to hit only at the expense of accuracy and resulting in lighter damage. If you want to move in close to cause heavy damage you lose your maneuverability and risk a collision while exposing yourself to their fire.

From a sound tactical perspective (in accordance with the OP's scenario), the Defiant's best bet would be to make one or two fast passes aimed at the nacelles and then hightail it home to call for backup. You simply can't take an escort into toe-to-toe combat 1 on 1.

 

[Maxillius]

What I would do in command of the Defiant (because Locutus must be stopped at all costs) is fly in under cloak between the nacelles (she'll fit), decloak, lock a strong tractor beam, and fire everything I had. It wouldn't matter if Enterprise's shields were up because I'd already be inside the shield perimeter. The crippled Enterprise (destroyed or badly mangled nacelles, shut down warp core, badly damaged impulse engines) could then be dispatched at my leisure.

 

[Subcommander R.]

The problem with that is the huge power signature of the Defiant would raise red flags far before you were in position. And in case you hadn't noticed, after you decloak you have to repower your weapons. So you'd be sitting there in a very bad place with no shields and no weapons, offering the Enterprise a 10-20 second window to act.

Then there's the obvious flaw. A Sovereign has an overall width of about 240 m. The area inside the nacelles is likely around 200. The Defiant is 119 long and 90 wide. Sure it can fit, but if your course and speed aren't precisely aligned with the larger ship you've earned a one way ticket to a fiery death. And guess what will happen the second you decloak (assuming you could make it that far to begin with, which I highly doubt)? There will be a change in course or speed.

You seem to think that this is some kind of dogfight. Thats not the way ships operate.

Now if we examine the OP's scenario, each believes the other is controlled by the borg. To that effect, we have to assume they are aware of a potential threat. That means everyone will be on their sensors. And that means closing to that kind of range is simply not realistic.

My final verdict:
Scenario-bending: Fight ends with minimum damage when sensors show no borg.
Combat based on prior warning (ie, there's an enemy in the area): Enterprise wins with heavy damage.
Combat based on little warning (ie, both make long-range contact, neither expecting each other's presence): Enterprise wins with light damage.

In order for the Defiant to win, the Enterprise would already have to be damaged or the Defiant would need reinforcements. Also you'd need a perfect storm of stupidity and mismanagement. There's a reason the E-E is the flagship.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Assuming there is no cloak being used......Sisko could be a match for Picard tactically, but in the end, it would be Enterprise E because it has technology based on, and probably improve upon the Defiant's technology, and a lot more firepower.

With a cloak, Defiant takes out E,before she knows what hit her.

Yeah the cloak is one thing going for the Definat that would totally outmatch the Enterprise.

i never understood how the cloak was so effective.

couldnt a ship just fire several frag torps and allow the frag segments to hit the ship?

 

[Deks]

The Defiant would be able to hang in the fight for a bit, but ultimately lose.
Given the technological capabilities of both ships, maneuverability of the Defiant wouldn't prevent the Enterprise-E from burning it with continuous phaser beams which are probably the most powerful ones available for a star-ship platform and would be able to cut through the shields eventually.

And besides, the Enterprise is still pretty maneuverable for a ship of it's size, allowing for numerous torpedo shots as well.

Btw... for those of you who keep mentioning the Lakota...
The upgraded Excelsior class ship was an even match for the Defiant (but neither wanted to use their Quantum torpedoes exactly because they wanted to prevent needless bloodshed).
Rewatch Paradise Syndrome, and if that was a fight between the Defiant and the Enterprise-E, the E has substantially more powerful phasers most likely that would roast the Defiant pretty fast.

 

[RocShaw]

Sorry for digging up an old thread. I googled Enterprise E vs Defiant, and here I am

I've noticed several people mention how Sisko is a better tactician than Picard. Picard is just some Diplomat. Let's not forget the one time that the two did face off, Wolf 359. Sisko lost his wife and almost lost his kid along with himself when his ship was destroyed. Just saying...

I always though the Enterprise was the flag ship of the Star Fleet Armada. Being the flag ship it has the very best crew in Star Fleet. The Best of the Best is who gets onto the Enterprise. If you're on the Odyssey or erm, Defiant... You weren't good enough to be on the Enterprise anyways

You may be able to tell I'm an 80's kid. I really liked DS9 and Voyager, even Enterprise but I have a soft spot for TNG.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've noticed several people mention how Sisko is a better tactician than Picard. Picard is just some Diplomat. Let's not forget the one time that the two did face off, Wolf 359. Sisko lost his wife and almost lost his kid along with himself when his ship was destroyed. Just saying...

What the hell kind of comparison is that? Wolf 359 was not Picard vs Sisko for a couple of reasons:

-Sisko wasn't in command, he was only first officer. The only order he gave was to evacuate after the ship got its ass kicked.

-Picard wasn't the one fighting and destroying those ships, the Borg were. They had unwilling access to Picard's memories and knowledge, that's it.

 

[theSaj]

Some thoughts...

Picard Maneuver - developed on the fly, good tactical prowess.

Defiant - prototype weapons technology platform on essentially a warp capable gunboat, one is hard pressed to even call it a ship. It really is a boat. Heavy weapons, big shields, but truly a short sprinter. Yes, it's a gunboat.

Enterprise E - newer ship, using the refined technologies first utilized in the Defiant which was an unstable unrefined platform. Class factor...

You're talking about a capital warship able to generate and sustain far more energy output than the Defiant. In fact, I'd wager that the E could have handled 3-4 Defiant's simultaneously. The maneuverability of the Defiant is somewhat moot. Looping and evasive maneuvers are of limited use in a one on one duel with a ship that has 360 degree firing arc coverage.

 

[MacLeod]

Some thoughts...

Picard Maneuver - developed on the fly, good tactical prowess.

Defiant - prototype weapons technology platform on essentially a warp capable gunboat, one is hard pressed to even call it a ship. It really is a boat. Heavy weapons, big shields, but truly a short sprinter. Yes, it's a gunboat.

Enterprise E - newer ship, using the refined technologies first utilized in the Defiant which was an unstable unrefined platform. Class factor...

You're talking about a capital warship able to generate and sustain far more energy output than the Defiant. In fact, I'd wager that the E could have handled 3-4 Defiant's simultaneously. The maneuverability of the Defiant is somewhat moot. Looping and evasive maneuvers are of limited use in a one on one duel with a ship that has 360 degree firing arc coverage.

Well we know the Definat is over powered for a ship of it's size. As for the Picard Maneouver there is a workable defence against it.

The Defiant is more akin to a frigate or destroyer, whilst the ENT-E might be closer to a Battlecrusier.

As for which ship can generate more power, we know that the Definat is overpowered for a ship of it's size. And without exact figures we can't say for certain the exact power generation difference in ships.

I always though the Enterprise was the flag ship of the Star Fleet Armada. Being the flag ship it has the very best crew in Star Fleet. The Best of the Best is who gets onto the Enterprise. If you're on the Odyssey or erm, Defiant... You weren't good enough to be on the Enterprise anyways

You mean people like O'Brien who was onbaord from the launch of the Enterprise, before later being promoted to Starbase DSN / USS Defiant.