Deep Space Nine Relaunch

[Therin of Andor]

That's what I miss when Titan is involved in a crossover rather than a stand alone. The primary interaction is between the major characters for the most part. I'd rather learn more about the varied characters on the Titan.

So you like "Titan", which is already the epitome of the crossover, but only when it doesn't cross over?

Sigh. You and I read very different "Titan" books. A running set of complaints (by others) with "Titan" has been that its crew is too varied - ie. consisting of way too many new races/characters/talents/attributes all at once. It has seemed to me that, in each Titan book (including its appearance in crossovers), two or three of the new aliens step forward to costar in the action. We are gradually getting to know them all, but it's still very early days. "Destiny" gave several of the "Titan" aliens plenty of room to shine.

By your original complaint, though, Melora Pazlar shouldn't be aboard Titan. She should have been an all-new Elaysian. Pava shouldn't be aboard either - "aren't their any other Andorians?" (ie. your earlier complaint about Shar). And Tuvok and his wife - I guess you think they shouldn't have ever strayed from "Voyager"?

But such a strategy - insisting on no crossovers - does absolutely nothing for the fans who've said, "Let's learn more about Pazlar, you know, that woman who was in one episode of DS9 but was originally meant to be a regular character", "Whatever happened to Pava, that Andorian cadet from the 'Starfleet Academy' comics?", and "Wouldn't you think Tuvok would have been promoted off 'Voyager' by now?"

I can only offer that if you dislike crossovers so much you simply avoid them, and allow those of us who are liking the lines just fine to keep having our fun. If crossovers are a necessary evil to keep sales figures up, then so be it. The authors have become very good at working within strict parameters imposed by the nature of licensed TV tie-ins. I enjoy the cross-pollination possibilities very much.

What's the flavour of each of the series? What's it's voice? What makes it distinct from the others?

I'm sure everyone will have their own opinions on this, but I do think the current books lines are quite distinct from each other. You've already told us you no longer care for "New Frontier" - Peter David's comic book style got too much for you.

The other books certainly have their own voices, whether written by one author or many. TOS books continue to resemble TOS TV episodes. TOS movie-era books have generally been very clever at reflecting the different tones of each TOS movie. TNG still reflects TNG's onscreen values with Picard's rather different-to-Kirk leadership style; it's had a few hiccoughs, but the most recent TNG books still felt like TNG to me. "Titan" seems more relaxed (like Riker), very multi-racial and quite scientific. VOY has again departed for the Delta Quadrant. DS9 still feels like the DS9 series, even after many cast changes. SCE is both character-driven and scientific/clever. ENT feels very ENT to me; the books feel like the canonical series is ongoing. "Vanguard" is also very distinctively "Vanguard", not just a TOS version of DS9, like many predicted.

 

[TerraUnam]

The shifting spotlight is what makes Titan fun, IMO. I like seeing all the non-human species of the Federation in turn. I think Torvig is one of the better characters to come along and I like seeing a bit more of him every book. Ditto with Dr. Ree.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The shifting spotlight is what makes Titan fun, IMO.

Most definitely! It's a shame TOS wasn't able to do this more during its TV run. Palamas, McGivers, Garrovick, Green, Stiles... quirky, interesting crewmembers who had a brief moment in the spotlight and vanished all-too-quickly. Kevin Riley and Angela Martine-Tellar, at least, got extra bites at the cherry.

 

[mackula]

After all this... I can't wait for the Typhon Pact series! Simply put... :-)

 

[kkozoriz1]

Taking a minor character and adding them to an ongoing series is fine. That's how O'Brien got to be such a popular character. It's a question of degree. Would Titan be the same series if every character on board was someone we'd seen before, even if it were just one episode?

When you have a true crossover, your primary focus is going to be more on the main characters and their interations. That's why people expect from crossovers, to see the different characters together. The minor characters may get a moment or two but it's rare that they would be in the spotlight.

If you're happy with the way things are in the novelvers then I'm happy for you. Seeing as this is a discussion board I would think that adressing why or why not people are enjoying the books would be a given. Comments like your "avoid crossovers" and Christopher's "Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction." strike me as "if you're not here to simply parise the novels then get out". Not in as many words of course but that's the feeling I'm getting.

I enjoyed Destiny even as I had grave doubts about the darkness of the story. I thnk that the stand alone Titan novels are great, not just as Trek novels but as science fiction novels. Some of the world building in them are top notch. Vanguard is a teriffic series that doesn't need crossovers to sustain it. When people are more attracted to the stunt of a crossover as oppsed to the quality of the series, you've got bigger problems than you may think you do.

Of course I like the novels. If I didn't think they were worthwile I wouldn't be spending time and energy talking about them. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to voice my concerns about the direction that the line appears to be taking at times.

 

[zar]

Comments like your "avoid crossovers" and Christopher's "Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction." strike me as "if you're not here to simply parise the novels then get out". Not in as many words of course but that's the feeling I'm getting.

Well, the feeling I get from you is that you think there's something inherently bad about novels sharing a common theme, so I had the same reaction as Christopher. Anything with "Star Trek" in the title is going to have a common theme.

 

[Christopher]

Comments like your "avoid crossovers" and Christopher's "Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction." strike me as "if you're not here to simply parise the novels then get out". Not in as many words of course but that's the feeling I'm getting.

Not at all. It just seems that you're objecting to so many things that are intrinsic parts of tie-in fiction, even of series fiction, that it puzzles me that you're interested in reading it at all. It's the nature of series fiction to have continuing characters and story elements, but you seem to be saying that any cross-connection between stories is objectionable to you. It just seems to me that the specific things you're saying you want are more likely to be found in original fiction than in something whose whole point is to tie into established characters, series, and storylines. So when I say maybe you'd be more satisfied with original fiction, I don't mean anything more than that.

I enjoyed Destiny even as I had grave doubts about the darkness of the story.

Okay, then I honestly don't understand what it is you're objecting to. Destiny was the one work of Trek prose fiction that most strongly featured the attributes you're describing as undesirable. Every other crossover has been considerably more standalone. So if you liked Destiny even though it had the qualities you're complaining about, I just don't know what your problem is with the rest of Trek Lit. I'm bewildered by the contradiction.

Of course I like the novels. If I didn't think they were worthwile I wouldn't be spending time and energy talking about them. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to voice my concerns about the direction that the line appears to be taking at times.

For the third time, there is no such "direction." Destiny was a unique event. Everything since then has been more self-contained. Yes, the books have followed up on the new status quo, but each book has done so individually, in its own way, with minimal interaction among the various casts. Only two post-Destiny books, A Singular Destiny and Losing the Peace, have directly followed up on its ramifications; the VGR and TTN installments have resumed telling their own individual stories with the events of Destiny merely serving as a backdrop. And that's the new status quo: standalone tales within a larger consistent setting, not an endless string of crossovers. So you really have nothing to worry about.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Seeing as this is a discussion board I would think that adressing why or why not people are enjoying the books would be a given.

Sure, but I can't see that your argument is even all that valid. ST fiction has have very few true crossovers, as Christopher explained earlier. "Gateways" and "Destiny". That's it.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Connection between series is different than connection within a series. Havin plots within Titan that continue from one book to the next is fine. The continuing arc of Keru shows that. It's when Titan is pulled into a situation where they meet up with another Starfleet ship that just happens to be one of our outher hero ships. It's having one TNG novel and no DS9 novels between the latest two crossover events. How long until the next crossover? Two years like between Desting and The Typhon pact? How many books will we get that aren't part of some big editoral plan? They may increase sale of the crossover but interrupting the ongoing story of the individual series bothers me. Are we heading toward nothing but EVENT storytelling with maybe one book between them?

 

[Therin of Andor]

kkozorz1, we will get what is proven to sell well, with the odd experiment scattered in between. Just like always. And if the odd experiments sell well, we'll get more of those too.

Two years like between Desting and The Typhon pact?

The four "Typhon Pact" books don't cross over with each other. They share a new political status quo.

 

[kkozoriz1]

A better term than crossover may be event. An editorially mandated event that interrupts the ongoing storyline that may or may not cross over with other series. Better?

For the first time we've got each of the series doing ongoing storylines in the novels. When the novels were complete stand alones, no continuity between books at all, you could easily pick and choose which ones to read. With the continuing arcs within the series, each book holds a part of the larger narraitve. While each book will provide enough information so that you're not lost if you skip one the richness of having a thread running through the series is diminished. It's like watching A TV show that has a "Last time on.." at the start of each episode. it may bring you up to speed but it can't cover everything that happened in the previous episode.

It's similar to watching DS9 during the Dominion War arc and having the Enterprise pop in for a totally unconnected story once a month.

 

[Thrawn]

^ I guess we'll see how true that is when the books are published, but aside from the fact that they have "Typhon Pact" on the covers, I don't see any evidence that this was an Editorial Mandate that ruined an already unfolding narrative to tell another story. It seems more like, to me, that these are the natural next stories to tell anyway, and they branded it "Typhon Pact" just so it would sell better.

I mean, Aventine isn't a series to begin with, DS9 HAS no ongoing narrative at this point (leaving them so far behind Destiny would've rendered many of that series's ongoing narratives irrelevant to their later conclusions, so it pretty much had to be updated), Titan is still exploring the unknown as is their hallmark (and really, why is it NOT an interesting and uniquely Titan story for them to run into another set of explorers out there as well? No other series could do that) and TNG's mission was pretty clearly established to be Federation-internal politics, which it's obviously still doing.

EDIT: Actually, that said, it is true that the Andor storyline was completely established in DS9 and is now finishing in TNG, and the Romulan story (involving Spock) was begun in TNG and is now switching over to DS9. But again, it's hardly the first time that's happened, even in series you like; the parasites on DS9, the Romulan situation that began Titan, the Klingon politics in Voyager, etc.

 

[Therin of Andor]

When the novels were complete stand alones, no continuity between books at all, you could easily pick and choose which ones to read.

And you still can. Except maaaaybe when a book has "Book #x in a mini-series". In recent years, that would only be... "Destiny" parts 1, 2 and 3.

For many years in the 90s fans were asking/pleading/demanding Pocket Books for continuity between ST novels. And crossovers. Richard Arnold, when he was vetting the manuscripts, quashed most attempts in the late 80s/early 90s. Now we get some novels that have strong continuity, some with tenuous continuity, some with coincidental continuity, some in different continuities, and some with none.

But never the balance that you seem to want. There are only 15 or so slots per year. What would be your preferred ratio?

 

[Therin of Andor]

it is true that the Andor storyline was completely established in DS9 and is now finishing in TNG

Finishing? Over my dead, blue body.

 

[Christopher]

^ I guess we'll see how true that is when the books are published, but aside from the fact that they have "Typhon Pact" on the covers, I don't see any evidence that this was an Editorial Mandate that ruined an already unfolding narrative to tell another story. It seems more like, to me, that these are the natural next stories to tell anyway, and they branded it "Typhon Pact" just so it would sell better.

Yep. A Singular Destiny introduced the Typhon Pact as part of the new astropolitical status quo, so it just stands to reason that the next thing to do would be books about the Pact members and their interactions with the Federation. Why bother introducing them if there was no intention of following through?

As for "editorially mandated," I'm not even sure what that means here. It implies that the editors having a say in story direction is some kind of anomaly, but that's nonsense. That's the editors' job! They determine the story direction in conjunction with the authors. That's not a subversion of the process, that is the process.

 

[Steve Roby]

kkozoriz1, keep in mind that the editor who developed Destiny with its author is no longer at Pocket, and neither is the one who set the Typhon Pact in motion. We really don't know what kind of storytelling the current editor prefers or what direction the books will follow when the things set in motion by previous editors have played out.

 

[JD]

I think it's worth pointing out that even when we have gotten crossovers, they have been actually been worked into the series arcs. So even if we did get more crossovers, I doubt very very much that they would simply dump the storylines that have been established, they'd just fold them into the crossovers story, like they did in Destiny and Gateways.

The impression I got after Destiny was that once all of this Typhon Pact stuff was established they would go back to more stand alone type stuff.

The Typhon Pact stuff is pretty standalone. The four books are separate adventures set at different times, featuring different crews dealing with different aliens. Yes, all those aliens are part of the Typhon Pact, but the thing I think some people haven't yet figured out about the Pact is that it isn't a single storyline -- it's simply the new astropolitical status quo. Even the standalone books from now on are going to be in a world where the political lines have been redrawn, where things are different than they were before.

By analogy, the Khitomer Accords changed the astropolitical landscape by making the Federation and the Klingons allies instead of enemies. So books set after the Accords represent a different political landscape, and books dealing with the Klingons reflect their changed status. But that doesn't mean those books about the Klingons are part of some ongoing "Khitomer Accords Saga." They're just individual stories reflecting a changed setting.

Okay, there's a little more unity to the Pact books than that, I gather. But they're not so much telling a single unified story as telling four distinct stories that develop and explore the ramifications of this new astropolitical landscape. And they're using the concept of the Pact as an opportunity to do books spotlighting alien cultures that have been underdeveloped in the past, such as the Gorn, Breen, and Tzenkethi.

Yeah, I knew that. I'm actually one of the ones who's been trying to explain that to Kkozoriz1.

 

[Christopher]

And so was I, by elaborating on the comment of yours that I quoted. We're all part of the same conversation, so a given post isn't necessarily directed exclusively at one person.

 

[JD]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking directly to me.

 

[shanejayell]

I've been trying to buy the Mission Gamma novels, but no dice. Bought 'These Haunted Seas' and will hope to find books 3,4.