Deep Space Nine Relaunch

[JD]

Umm, how about this month (Zero Sum Game), next month (Seize the Fire), December (Rough Beasts of Empire), January (Paths of Disharmony, we have been told repeated that despite the Typhon Pact elements the stories are stand alone), March (Indistinguishable From Magic, although that does have characters from multiple series), July (A Choice of Catastrophes), and September (Cast No Shadow).

 

[Thrawn]

When will we see stand alone stories again?

Jesus Christ, you can be melodramatic sometimes. Destiny changed everything; of course there would be aftermath stories. Despite that, out of the six follow-up novels so far, fully half of them have been completely standalone (Unworthy and the two Titan novels), and several reviews have stated that you can read all the rest - ASD or LTP or Full Circle - on their own and enjoy them just fine.

And the forthcoming four Typhon Pact books?

...ARE ALL STANDALONE STORIES TOO.

And even if that's not good enough, all the 24th century books - and in fact, all the books *PERIOD* next year - are standalones (in your sense of not being part of crossovers; a couple are part of ongoing series, but you don't seem to have any problem with that).

In what world is that NOT "seeing standalone stories again"?

And while we're at it, since when are crossovers a new thing? The SHOWS did them all the time! McCoy, Scotty, and Spock were on TNG, Kirk met Picard in Generations, the ENT-D visited DS9 in a TNG episode and also in the DS9 premier, O'Brien and Worf came from the ENT-D, VOY left from DS9 and later on in the series also met Barclay, Geordi showed up in a future episode... These people all knew each other already. The books have perhaps deepened those relationships, but it didn't establish them.

And finally, with the publication of Cast No Shadow, we will have learned of four of Vaughn's missions before he came to DS9. Out of a career of eight decades, is it really THAT unreasonable that, four times, he would've worked with other characters we've heard of? And is it surprising that those would be the missions people would more want to read?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I love near a town of less than 1000 people and I don't more than 100 of them and have probably met less than half.

And yet, I went to visit my mother, who's just moved to a large country town (pop: 27,478) in New South Wales, she introduced me to three neighbours in her caravan park on the first day - the only three other people I'd met in Nowra. And we ran into two of those women every day for the next four days! Not only in and around the caravan park, but when out shopping locally, in a restaurant in a different town, driving past in a car, and walking in another street. It seemed beyond coincidence, but I don't think there were stalking us.

If you're asking for ST tie-ins where no one ever meets other known characters from the same franchise simply because their universe is too large then you're stripping a lot of appeal out of the characters' possible interrelationships. There are only about 15 slots a year and we don't get enough of all the popular characters as it is.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's what some of the audience is interested in seeing. Perhaps even most but certainly not all.

Each of the TV series ignored bits of a typical day that the writers decided we didn't really need to see. We never saw Kirk excusing himself to go to the bathroom, never saw anyone filing their nails (except with it was Janice Lester in Kirk's body), etc. When we do see those bits, they somehow are connected to the unfolding plot.

What's so exciting about going to, say, Previously Unknown Starbase 375, and introducing a whole new crew we'll never meet again (because you hate Small Universe Syndrome) when the Enterprise can go to a starbase (like Vanguard) purposely populated with numerous people who did or will eventually work with Kirk canonically, or where ancestors of people (who will one day be referenced in DS9), such as Pennington, live and work?

When will we see stand alone stories again?

Whenever someone pitches one that the editors simply cannot turn down?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Umm, how about this month (Zero Sum Game), next month (Seize the Fire), December (Rough Beasts of Empire), January (Paths of Disharmony, we have been told repeated that despite the Typhon Pact elements the stories are stand alone), March (Indistinguishable From Magic, although that does have characters from multiple series), July (A Choice of Catastrophes), and September (Cast No Shadow).

Indistinguishable from Magic has Geordi, Scotty, Nog and Guinan with some other familiar faces and guest stars according to the author himself. It sure sounds like a crossover.

Typhon Pact does have characters crossing over as well as being a thematic crossover.

 

[kkozoriz1]

When will we see stand alone stories again?

Jesus Christ, you can be melodramatic sometimes. Destiny changed everything; of course there would be aftermath stories. Despite that, out of the six follow-up novels so far, fully half of them have been completely standalone (Unworthy and the two Titan novels), and several reviews have stated that you can read all the rest - ASD or LTP or Full Circle - on their own and enjoy them just fine.

And the forthcoming four Typhon Pact books?

...ARE ALL STANDALONE STORIES TOO.

And even if that's not good enough, all the 24th century books - and in fact, all the books *PERIOD* next year - are standalones (in your sense of not being part of crossovers; a couple are part of ongoing series, but you don't seem to have any problem with that).

In what world is that NOT "seeing standalone stories again"?

And while we're at it, since when are crossovers a new thing? The SHOWS did them all the time! McCoy, Scotty, and Spock were on TNG, Kirk met Picard in Generations, the ENT-D visited DS9 in a TNG episode and also in the DS9 premier, O'Brien and Worf came from the ENT-D, VOY left from DS9 and later on in the series also met Barclay, Geordi showed up in a future episode... These people all knew each other already. The books have perhaps deepened those relationships, but it didn't establish them.

And finally, with the publication of Cast No Shadow, we will have learned of four of Vaughn's missions before he came to DS9. Out of a career of eight decades, is it really THAT unreasonable that, four times, he would've worked with other characters we've heard of? And is it surprising that those would be the missions people would more want to read?

Losing The Peace is a standalone? It's a direct followup to Destiny. It's dealing entirely with the fallout of that. It's intertwined with it.

A Singular Destiny is set-up for Typhon Pact as well as dealing with Destiny. KRAD said so himself " I'll be doing a followup in February 2009 called A Singular Destiny, which will deal with the fallout from what happens in that trilogy."That's the whole deal with it. What's going on? Where do these clues lead?

There are crossovers in Typhon Pact not just of characters but of the broad plot of setting up the new kid on the block.

Crossovers on the shows were very rare. McCoy was essentially a cameo, meeting up only with Data. Spock, Scotty & Kirk were singular events over the span of 176 episodes and one movie. Lets toss in the first episode of DS9 and a couple of other episodes as well. Let's call it ten episode or movies that had a crossover. Out of 177. That's 6 percesnt. In the past 5 years, how many TNG books haven't had a crossover of some sort? The books are cross pollinating a lot more than the shows did.

Standalone, continuing series are great with the occasional contact between series. DS9-R was doing a great job, at least up to Warpath. TNG was more uneven with A Time To being sometimes great, sometimes OK, sometimes meh. Voyager, the least said the better, until the msot recent relaunch. Titan for the most part has been great, actually doing the strange new worlds, new life forms bit. Let the series find their own voices. They're all sort of blending together. Let them stand on their own.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Paths of Disharmony has Picard & Shar. What, there's no other Andorians?

You can bet your life that "Paths of Disharmony" will be seething with seething Andorians. It's set on Andor!

Shar's involvement, IIRC, is connected to his personal story from "Andor: Paradigm" and the alien eggs he discovered in "This Grey Spirit".

A Singular Destiny is set-up for Typhon Pact as well as dealing with Destiny. KRAD said so himself " I'll be doing a followup in February 2009 called A Singular Destiny, which will deal with the fallout from what happens in that trilogy."

I'm reading this at the moment, but didn't yet read "Losing the Peace" (I took the wrong one on vacation). I'm not lost at all. "A Singular Destiny" works extremely well as a standalone novel. KRAD reminds us several times that a terrible event has occurred, but numerous canonical ST adventures have presented a story that already started offscreen long before the hero ship gets involved.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Indistinguishable from Magic has Geordi, Scotty, Nog and Guinan with some other familiar faces and guest stars according to the author himself. It sure sounds like a crossover.

Then stop reading - until Pocket does the stories you seem to want to read.

 

[Thrawn]

Standalone, continuing series are great with the occasional contact between series. DS9-R was doing a great job, at least up to Warpath.

Avatar, books 1 and 2 - ENT-E visited the station; one of the new characters is Ro, from TNG. Another is an Andorian, only really seen on TOS.
Section 31: Abyss - thematic crossover; tied up plot elements from Insurrection
Gateways: Demons of Air & Darkness - literal crossover; all the crews working on the same problem
Mission: Gamma - included Admiral Akaar, a character originally from TOS; the parasites, an enemy from TNG; the Borg, an enemy primarily associated with TNG and VOY; Simon Tarses, a minor character from TNG; Gul Macet, a minor character from TNG; etc, etc
Unity - see above

and the list goes on.

I guess I just don't understand where your dividing line is. Several minor characters and plot threads = "finding its own identity", but then a couple major characters and plot threads = "all blending together".

 

[kkozoriz1]

I got tired of Akaar a long time ago. Really liked the character when he was introduced but now he's turned into "the one admiral for everyone". He shows up everywhere. It seems that anytime an admiral is called for it's either Akaar, Nechayev or Jellico.

I didn't like Gateways at all. Every captain ends up going through the gateways. It read more of a gimmick.

Section 31 was fairly well done but came up short in having everyone find out about the existence of this super secret organization. Way to make sure nobody discovers your secret guys. Of course, Enterprise does the same thing later on (or earlier depending on your point of view).

The parasites were a long dangling plot thread that was handled in an interesting way. Prynn and Vaughn finding a Borg that just happens to be Prynn's long lost mother and the source of friction between father and daughter was so overly coincidental that I just glossed over it.

Etc, etc.

It's not so much a hard and fast line as a zone. Depending how it's handled I'm willing to cut a story some slack in the crossover department. Lately though, it feels like Starfleet is made up of about a dozen ships, with a couple of thousand other people on various bases, headquarters, etc. It should feel like hundreds if not thousands of ships with millions of personnel.

I wonder how long before Vanguard gets caught up in the mix. Will every second or third book have an appearance by the Enterprise?

 

[Christopher]

Lately though, it feels like Starfleet is made up of about a dozen ships, with a couple of thousand other people on various bases, headquarters, etc. It should feel like hundreds if not thousands of ships with millions of personnel.

Uhh, for about 20 years, Trek fiction made it feel like Starfleet was made up of just one ship, the Enterprise. The only other ships that ever showed up were usually destroyed before or during the story. Anything of any significance that happened anywhere in the galaxy was done by James T. Kirk and his crew. Then, for five years after that, it was either Kirk or Picard who was doing anything and everything of significance. That's small universe syndrome.

It's the nature of series fiction to be finite. By definition, by clearly declared intent, a series is about a specific group of people. Events are always contrived so that those specific people manage to be at the center of every important thing that happens. (Look at the Futurama universe. How incredible is it that all these cosmic phenomena and wars and invasions and political scandals and socially transformative events always directly involve the staff of a small package delivery company? Or in Battlestar Galactica/Caprica, how coincidental is it that the commander of the last surviving battlestar turns out to be the son of a man who was acquainted with the creator of the Cylons?)

At least these days, the ST universe has expanded enough that it's not just one ship and crew doing everything. Yes, it's a finite number of ships and crews, as is the nature of series fiction, but it's grown large enough that it's somewhat more credible.

Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction.

 

[flemm]

There's a lot to discuss and criticize regarding specific creative choices of course, but let's keep in mind that the overall quality of Trek Lit at the moment is extremely high, especially given that we are talking largely about tie-ins to shows that have been off the air for as much as ten years or more.

My main point of contention is the dilapidation and now abandonment of the (excellent) initial DS9-R that has been allowed to occur over a number of years. That sucks big time. (Also, if I were a fan of Voyager, I think I would probably despise Before Dishonor.) But overall Trek Lit from the TNG-era is doing amazingly well in terms of quality. I don't know how it's doing sales-wise, but hopefully well enough to justify its continued existence

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction.

I was thinking that, too, really.

 

[zar]

Let's call it ten episode or movies that had a crossover. Out of 177. That's 6 percesnt. In the past 5 years, how many TNG books haven't had a crossover of some sort?

Okay, I'll play along... according to sjroby's page there have been over 100 TNG novels, and 7 released in the past 5 years.

Hmm... 7 out of over 100? That works out to about... 6 percent!


edit: And it seems to me that your rules for determining what constitutes a "crossover" in novels are much broader than the ones used to choose those 10 episodes. There was a ton of stuff in the 5 TV series that built on stuff that was previously established in other series or earlier episodes, while still being accessible to the casual viewer. Aren't the "crossover" novels doing essentially the same thing?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Lately though, it feels like Starfleet is made up of about a dozen ships, with a couple of thousand other people on various bases, headquarters, etc. It should feel like hundreds if not thousands of ships with millions of personnel.

Uhh, for about 20 years, Trek fiction made it feel like Starfleet was made up of just one ship, the Enterprise. The only other ships that ever showed up were usually destroyed before or during the story. Anything of any significance that happened anywhere in the galaxy was done by James T. Kirk and his crew. Then, for five years after that, it was either Kirk or Picard who was doing anything and everything of significance. That's small universe syndrome.

It's the nature of series fiction to be finite. By definition, by clearly declared intent, a series is about a specific group of people. Events are always contrived so that those specific people manage to be at the center of every important thing that happens. (Look at the Futurama universe. How incredible is it that all these cosmic phenomena and wars and invasions and political scandals and socially transformative events always directly involve the staff of a small package delivery company? Or in Battlestar Galactica/Caprica, how coincidental is it that the commander of the last surviving battlestar turns out to be the son of a man who was acquainted with the creator of the Cylons?)

At least these days, the ST universe has expanded enough that it's not just one ship and crew doing everything. Yes, it's a finite number of ships and crews, as is the nature of series fiction, but it's grown large enough that it's somewhat more credible.

Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction.

I've read quite a bit of original fiction Christopher. As a matter of fact when we were looking for our current house one of the main considerations was if there was a large enough room for our library. It's currently a room 20 by 15 feet with shelves floor to ceiling. Science fiction, fantasy, history, non fiction. You name it, we've probably got it. I've usually got 2-3 books on the go at any particular time. Somehow I don't think that lack of variety in my reading material is really a problem here.

In TOS we had one ship we were following. In the current novelverse we're following many. But rather than expanding the scope of the universe, it appears that TPTB are content to keep it small. Let's have everyone meet up with everyone else at some point. Let have the ships bump into each other, just because.

DS9 is sitting at the doorstep of an almost entirely unexplored quadrant. That should be their focus with Bajor and Cardassia as additional locations.

Destiny has been over for almost two years now. What has the Enterprise been up to? Clean up from Destiny and running to Alpha Centauri to provide what would essentially be riot control, a police function. Two years and that's what we've got? And the epilogue of that one story leads directly into the next big event.

Ezri's now a captain of the newest, most advanced ship in the fleet. Do we get to see her going off someplace and discovering something new? Nope, we get to see her as support for a mission for her old boyfriend. I'm of course deliberately simplifying the idea but why bother taking Ezri off the station if you're going to keep her in it's orbit?

Titan's got a great crew. Diverse and filled with interesting aliens. It works best when it's concentrating on all that that promises. Put them out on the frontier and let's see all the diverse reactions they have to something new and unusual.

 

[David Mack]

I wonder how long before Vanguard gets caught up in the mix. Will every second or third book have an appearance by the Enterprise?

FYI, the Enterprise appeared in the first Star Trek Vanguard novel to help kick off the series, but even then the 1701 and her crew were guest-stars.

To date, the Vanguard saga consists of five full-length novels, one S.C.E. prequel novella, an upcoming anthology, and at least upcoming novel. In all of that, the Enterprise has been part of only one book, and she will not reappear in the anthology or the next novel.

 

[Christopher]

^Although Vanguard does feature established characters such as Dr. M'Benga, Carol and David Marcus, Clark Terrell, Admiral Nogura, and the Lovell crew from SCE, so by kkozoriz1's remarkably broad definitions, it has "crossovers" all over the place.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Thank's David. Vanguard is my current favorite series. The appearance by the Enterprise was well done, similar to how the Enterprise-D showed up in the first episode of DS9. I was actually joking about the Enterprise showing up on a regular basis based on the trend towards crossovers in the TNG time period. I'd actually be perfectly happy if the Enterprise never visited Vanguard again. As Uhura said "It's a big galaxy, Mr. Scott"

Having the Sagittarius assigned to Vanguard is one of my favorite parts of the story. A small, tightly knit crew that interacts with the station and still goes off and does the whole exploration thing is a lot of fun. It makes more sense that sending off the station crew all the time.

 

[kkozoriz1]

M'Benga we see at an earlier part of his career on his way to the Enterprise. Same with Terrell. Since Vanguard has been established as the source of Genesis, it makes sense for Carol Marcus to be there although that's starting to get a little too small universe. Nogura is totally unnecessary. He was mentioned in a couple of lines in one of the movies. I'd prefer someone that we don't know their future. You can't put him in jeopardy since we know he's going to survive. I would have preferred another ship from the SCE be assigned temporarily to Vanguard but it makes sense since the Lovell was involved in the station's construction. Toss Gorkon into the mix and even Vanguard is starting to feel too familiar at times.

 

[JD]

Lately though, it feels like Starfleet is made up of about a dozen ships, with a couple of thousand other people on various bases, headquarters, etc. It should feel like hundreds if not thousands of ships with millions of personnel.

Uhh, for about 20 years, Trek fiction made it feel like Starfleet was made up of just one ship, the Enterprise. The only other ships that ever showed up were usually destroyed before or during the story. Anything of any significance that happened anywhere in the galaxy was done by James T. Kirk and his crew. Then, for five years after that, it was either Kirk or Picard who was doing anything and everything of significance. That's small universe syndrome.

It's the nature of series fiction to be finite. By definition, by clearly declared intent, a series is about a specific group of people. Events are always contrived so that those specific people manage to be at the center of every important thing that happens. (Look at the Futurama universe. How incredible is it that all these cosmic phenomena and wars and invasions and political scandals and socially transformative events always directly involve the staff of a small package delivery company? Or in Battlestar Galactica/Caprica, how coincidental is it that the commander of the last surviving battlestar turns out to be the son of a man who was acquainted with the creator of the Cylons?)

At least these days, the ST universe has expanded enough that it's not just one ship and crew doing everything. Yes, it's a finite number of ships and crews, as is the nature of series fiction, but it's grown large enough that it's somewhat more credible.

Honestly, if you're so unhappy with continuity and recurring characters, maybe you'd be happier if you read more original fiction.

I've read quite a bit of original fiction Christopher. As a matter of fact when we were looking for our current house one of the main considerations was if there was a large enough room for our library. It's currently a room 20 by 15 feet with shelves floor to ceiling. Science fiction, fantasy, history, non fiction. You name it, we've probably got it. I've usually got 2-3 books on the go at any particular time. Somehow I don't think that lack of variety in my reading material is really a problem here.

In TOS we had one ship we were following. In the current novelverse we're following many. But rather than expanding the scope of the universe, it appears that TPTB are content to keep it small. Let's have everyone meet up with everyone else at some point. Let have the ships bump into each other, just because.

DS9 is sitting at the doorstep of an almost entirely unexplored quadrant. That should be their focus with Bajor and Cardassia as additional locations.

Destiny has been over for almost two years now. What has the Enterprise been up to? Clean up from Destiny and running to Alpha Centauri to provide what would essentially be riot control, a police function. Two years and that's what we've got? And the epilogue of that one story leads directly into the next big event.

Ezri's now a captain of the newest, most advanced ship in the fleet. Do we get to see her going off someplace and discovering something new? Nope, we get to see her as support for a mission for her old boyfriend. I'm of course deliberately simplifying the idea but why bother taking Ezri off the station if you're going to keep her in it's orbit?

Titan's got a great crew. Diverse and filled with interesting aliens. It works best when it's concentrating on all that that promises. Put them out on the frontier and let's see all the diverse reactions they have to something new and unusual.

Umm you do realize that in the amount of time you're talking about we've only had one novel in each of the series you're talking about. As for what the stories have been about, you have to consider the fact that Destiny was a big deal and they're going to need a few books to deal with it. The whole universe has been changed they need time to establish what things will be like now. Hell, even in the Typhon Pact books the different ships are off doing their own thing, Aventine is helping Bashir, the E-E is at Andor, Titan is going to be off dealing with Haranrar (I think I spelled that right) a new planet and species we've never seen (but, oh no I guess they're not dealing new worlds or civilisations were they), and we don't know what the Defiant will be up to if it's involved. And not only that, but they are dealing with entirely different members of the Typhon Pact.

As for characters crossing series, they're guest characters who are helping move that series and it's characters stories. So it's not like they're completely taking over the series, and if they do then it is not marked as that series, it's simply Star Trek, like in Destiny.