The Federation didn't want Bajor to kick them out, they saw Bajor as a step toward their manifest destiny. They wanted Bajor to join their big happy family.
Deep Space 9 Defenses
- Thread starter PhaserLightShow
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That's a lot of mustache twirling, but DS9 certainly has precedence for it: setting up Pa'Dar and Ghemor; Seska's attributing her baby to Chuckles; even Marritza's plan was contrived. I would not be surprised if Dukat felt he was manipulating small bands of underground fighters, allowing them opportunities to attack his enemies and exploiting the outrage that followed therefrom.
Considering the current technology to fight guerilla groups and their ability to evade despite that technology, the Bajoran Resistance would have had to be a more nebulous, decentralized organization than what was portrayed.
Well, Picard did - he had his own reasons, some sort of misguided guilt among them. But he didn't appear to be in factual charge of the project.
Later episodes showed how inconvenient Bajor would have been without the wormhole: right next door to Cardassia, surrounded by Cardassian allies, a convenient proxy scene for the ongoing conflict at the DMZ, and riddled by fanatics opposed to UFP "occupation". Trying to hold on to that piece of real estate might have made the UFP look bad indeed, not much better than the Cardassians.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure if Dukat would have let the Resistance run riot if he could have stopped them. The Cardassian withdrawal always seemed political rather than a military defeat, but surely if Dukat had a nice, pliant, subdued planet under his prefecture, the Cardassian government wouldn't have felt much need to stay? He felt it a personal slight that the Bajorans fought his benevolent rule so spiritedly.
I always got the impression it was something of a quid pro quo to grease the wheels of the treaty with the Federation. It was around the same time they were swapping planets like Stalin and Churchill agreeing percentages, far above Dukat or Picard's paygrades. Central Command never cared much about Bajor, but the bleeding heart Federation were making it more trouble than it was worth. So perhaps Cardassia leaves Bajor, and the Federation drop their claim over Dorvan V, or some other disputed world?
I always got the impression it was something of a quid pro quo to grease the wheels of the treaty with the Federation. It was around the same time they were swapping planets like Stalin and Churchill agreeing percentages, far above Dukat or Picard's paygrades. Central Command never cared much about Bajor, but the bleeding heart Federation were making it more trouble than it was worth. So perhaps Cardassia leaves Bajor, and the Federation drop their claim over Dorvan V, or some other disputed world?
And the reason I seem unhappy with the conversation? Well, people like to answer questions to show their knowledge. If I seem unsatisfied, people will think that they have not adequately answered my question, so they will be compelled to continue. I like what has been said, I would simply like more ideas in the discussion, I believe I found a way to find these extra ideas.
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You mean leave? I sort of suspect the Central Command got so badly humiliated in "Chain of Command" that the Detapa Council got a free "kick them while they are down" card and decided to use it on the CC occupation of Bajor. Whether Bajor had resources or resistance wouldn't have mattered, as long as it was a CC project that could be denied them. And something to mend fences with the UFP with.
Did the resistance actually run riot? Their biggest achievement seems to have been liberating Gallitep, and boy if that wasn't messed up. Supposedly, it happened 12 years before the Cardassian departure! How's that possible? I mean, the Cardassians might not care whether the exact people liberated from there were actually recaptured and properly put to death - but surely they would feel the need to reestablish the camp ASAP so as not to make the resistance think they had won anything?
Timo Saloniemi
And it never happened. So what was point of the Federation being there?
Sorry, yes, leave! And a. Good point about Chain of Command - Kira later notes that the Cardassian dissident movement had been gaining strength for years, so that was another own goal for the military.
The whole time line for the Bajoran occupation is a bit messed up. There are conflicted messages about how long it had been going on, so I wonder if the Cardassians didn't arrive as 'friends' who outstayed their welcome? It would add depth to the arguments of those who thought Bajor was making exactly the same mistake with the Federation, if the Cardassians had promised all the same things forty or fifty years ago.
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The story of Gallitep is problematic when we only hear it through the layered lies of an impostor. The poor clerk claims that when the Cardassian military was ordered to withdraw (from the entire planet, not just from the camp), "he" (that is, Gul Darhe'el) tried to get the occupants of the camp executed before departure. How's that possible if the camp had been liberated 12 years earlier and if Darhe'el himself was dead for six years? (And how come the clerk didn't figure people would notice his massively famous alter ego being dead for six years?)
Did it all actually happen 12 months before "Duet"? We'd have to change every reference to "year" in the episode into "month" then, but that would actually help with all the issues rather than further complicate them. It is all lies, but quite possibly in the Garakian sense of all of them actually being true, after a fashion.
"Darkness and Light" does establish a dozen-year long resistance career for Kira, oddly failing to mention Gallitep, but instead mentioning several killings of Cardassians. It's a bit odd that Cardassians would allow themselves to be killed - why would they be living down on the surface and skimming around in their vehicles if even ore processing could be moved up to the safety of space? It seems Terok Nor could only indirectly protect them; we never hear of the station itself doing anything to the resistance.
Timo Saloniemi
Did it all actually happen 12 months before "Duet"? We'd have to change every reference to "year" in the episode into "month" then, but that would actually help with all the issues rather than further complicate them. It is all lies, but quite possibly in the Garakian sense of all of them actually being true, after a fashion.
"Darkness and Light" does establish a dozen-year long resistance career for Kira, oddly failing to mention Gallitep, but instead mentioning several killings of Cardassians. It's a bit odd that Cardassians would allow themselves to be killed - why would they be living down on the surface and skimming around in their vehicles if even ore processing could be moved up to the safety of space? It seems Terok Nor could only indirectly protect them; we never hear of the station itself doing anything to the resistance.
Timo Saloniemi
I get the impression that in some respects, Bajor would not WANT to have a heavily armed station in their backyard, let alone orbiting over their heads. Their planetary defenses were never really explored in the show, but it never seemed to be a major problem to smuggle people on or off the planet, and it was never directly attacked - so in general I think it's reasonable to assume they weren't big on an active defense against attack or invasion, even if they could afford it. Having a big gun platform in your system can easily make the system a target, in and of itself.
Furthermore, DS9 was firmly established as the property of Bajor, and that Starfleet was just there to administrate the station as they prepared for Federation membership (whereupon IMO the station would have eventually been replaced by a fully equipped starbase-level facility, with resources, defenses and technology not seen even on a starship). Therefore, arming the station from the outset could have been a major faux-pas. Sure, the Feds could leave around their own small arms and maybe a few Runabouts, but nothing strategic in nature, even when the wormhole opened up a whole new era of trade and importance to the system, especially during an era of relative peace between the major AQ powers. The biggest threat force locally were the Cardassians, but the Federation presence was certainly meant to prevent that from escalating in any military way.
So, I can fully see beefing up the system's defenses as a back burner project for the economically-downtrodden people who owned the station. When the Dominion showed up, and made a big shiny symbol of the Federation's power and might disappear, Bajor would surely acquiesce to Starfleet's request to get the station ready for a fight, allowing the defenses to be expanded AND to have a dedicated platform like the Defiant to be permanently stationed there.
Should Terok Nor have been better defended? Maybe, but against what? Even when it was the seat of Cardassian power, the station was still orbiting a backwater planet whose only viable export was apparently rocks. Even as a raw resource it can't be THAT necessary to defend it strategically. So, the Cardassians would likely rely on their starships for force projection and have Terok Nor be equipped to handle smaller ships (which would be all any resistance cells would be able to muster anyway) via its six li'l weapons sails. At best I really doubt the original configuration would ever be meant to handle a standup fight with any major power, any longer than it'd take Dukat to beam out of the place.
MArk
Furthermore, DS9 was firmly established as the property of Bajor, and that Starfleet was just there to administrate the station as they prepared for Federation membership (whereupon IMO the station would have eventually been replaced by a fully equipped starbase-level facility, with resources, defenses and technology not seen even on a starship). Therefore, arming the station from the outset could have been a major faux-pas. Sure, the Feds could leave around their own small arms and maybe a few Runabouts, but nothing strategic in nature, even when the wormhole opened up a whole new era of trade and importance to the system, especially during an era of relative peace between the major AQ powers. The biggest threat force locally were the Cardassians, but the Federation presence was certainly meant to prevent that from escalating in any military way.
So, I can fully see beefing up the system's defenses as a back burner project for the economically-downtrodden people who owned the station. When the Dominion showed up, and made a big shiny symbol of the Federation's power and might disappear, Bajor would surely acquiesce to Starfleet's request to get the station ready for a fight, allowing the defenses to be expanded AND to have a dedicated platform like the Defiant to be permanently stationed there.
Should Terok Nor have been better defended? Maybe, but against what? Even when it was the seat of Cardassian power, the station was still orbiting a backwater planet whose only viable export was apparently rocks. Even as a raw resource it can't be THAT necessary to defend it strategically. So, the Cardassians would likely rely on their starships for force projection and have Terok Nor be equipped to handle smaller ships (which would be all any resistance cells would be able to muster anyway) via its six li'l weapons sails. At best I really doubt the original configuration would ever be meant to handle a standup fight with any major power, any longer than it'd take Dukat to beam out of the place.
MArk
Mind you, Dukat baulks at a couple of Klingon ships posing much of a threat to DS9 in Way of the Warrior, before he knows about the massive upgrades. The station must have been more capable than it showed in Emissary, even if it was only after the initial Starfleet repairs he was aware of.
Excellent point. Dukat would probably be well informed, though, thus knowing about the "Visionary" level of readiness already. And if the station can deter a D'deridex, then it no doubt can handle several Klingon ships equally well.
Doesn't mean it could have done that in its Cardassian heyday, though. Starfleet engineers are famed for turning rocks into replicators, as Keevan the Vorta puts it. And Terok Nor as abandoned would have been full of suitable rocks...
Timo Saloniemi
Doesn't mean it could have done that in its Cardassian heyday, though. Starfleet engineers are famed for turning rocks into replicators, as Keevan the Vorta puts it. And Terok Nor as abandoned would have been full of suitable rocks...
Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn't put it past Dukat not to have a spy on the station.
On the other hand, maybe the orthodoxy of the day would be that a similar armed station would have an advantage over a mobile force: more power, no need for thrusters, no need for pesky inertial dampeners that keep from the crew from becoming pools of blood.
Indeed, why else would Gul Jasad lead a formation of three ships against the station in the pilot but because conventional wisdom has it that stations trump ships?
Three might be needed to best a humble mining station thoroughly gutted and pillaged only weeks earlier. Fifty would be sound Klingon tactical thinking against a station upgraded to general UFP outpost standards. A hundred would fail against a station upgraded to UFP fortress standards.
Timo Saloniemi
Three might be needed to best a humble mining station thoroughly gutted and pillaged only weeks earlier. Fifty would be sound Klingon tactical thinking against a station upgraded to general UFP outpost standards. A hundred would fail against a station upgraded to UFP fortress standards.
Timo Saloniemi
DS9 had been repaired to some minimum Starfleet standard some Admirals would be satisfied with, I'm sure. In "The Search", with minimal information on Jem'Haddar combat capacity other than their ability to blow up the USS Odyssey, Kira's battle simulations saw them overwhelmed and boarded within an optimistic two hours. This suggests that the station had been upgraded somewhat, but almost certainly not to the fleet-repelling state we'd see a year later.
Anyway, the point I'm arguing is that in real life people tend to build stuff to meet a minimum requirement required by the situation at hand. Does one need a heavily armed station whose primary function was to process ore? Not likely, IMO. I've no doubt that Terok Nor was able to deal with threats of the day for an out of the way, low-value conquered target, but they had a big fleet of shiny orange ships to blow stuff up anywhere they'd need them to be. Point defense in any sci-fi gets a little wonky (just go around, space is BIG), but in this case my vision of what Bajor was would never necessitate anything but token defenses.
Mark
Anyway, the point I'm arguing is that in real life people tend to build stuff to meet a minimum requirement required by the situation at hand. Does one need a heavily armed station whose primary function was to process ore? Not likely, IMO. I've no doubt that Terok Nor was able to deal with threats of the day for an out of the way, low-value conquered target, but they had a big fleet of shiny orange ships to blow stuff up anywhere they'd need them to be. Point defense in any sci-fi gets a little wonky (just go around, space is BIG), but in this case my vision of what Bajor was would never necessitate anything but token defenses.
Mark
According to one of the Prophets, it does (it's just not shown in the series).
Good to know all of those episodes produced and televised the struggles, torment, and history for the Bajorans to be members of the Federation... just to NOT be shown in the entire run of the series.
But wasn't the point of DS9 that you don't have to be in the Federation? IDIC. Bajor was free to make their own future, but Federation membership wasn't important any longer.
Bajor was never the chief setting of DS9; even in the first season it is only visited a few times. Certainly Michael Piller hoped to create a different perspective on the Star Trek universe by slowing down the pacing of stories and forcing them to face permanent conflicts with differentiated personalities. A space station with a permanent mission helped to shape the dynamic Piller wanted, but it also happened by rooting some of the characters more clearly in family, by putting together a more diverse set of people, and forcing interactions with non-Federation government entities.
Showing how a world becomes part of the Federation was not the premise of the show. Indeed, from its pilot to its finale, DS9 is the story of Benjamin Sisko and similar oddballs to find their home. Bajor was meant to be part of that story, and after the third season Bajor was worked back into narratives via Sisko's strategic interests and spiritual growth, Kira's struggles with memory and justice, and the manipulations of Winn. The show became more politically extroverted than Piller had intended, and I would have like more introspection. But we were never promised that Bajor would join the Federation.
ETA: Given that Sisko was a Moses/MLK like figure, the fact that we can see the "promised land" of Bajoran admission, but never get there, is very fitting.
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Two Klingon Starships (1 Vor'cha Attack Cruiser and a K'Vort Bird-Of-Prey) would not be a threat to a Galaxy-Class. But there were more than two. He didn't need to know about upgrades. He must have assumed standard Starfleet Weaponry (10 Type-X Phaser Banks, 20-250 Photons) was installed. Of course it was more capable than it showed in "Emissary"; there were Starfleet repairs/upgrades. But, without those upgrades, even a Galaxy Dreadnaught would be outmatched by the many Klingon ships attacking DS9.
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