They definitely saved the best for the legends part of the crossover.
Spoilers DC TV Arrow/Flash Universe Crossover Discussion
- Thread starter Timelord79 (he/him)
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Yeah, we've been talking about it in this thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/freedom-fighters-the-ray-web-series.282892/
They're no doubt featured in the animated webseries, since they're in the title, but this is set after that, so maybe they don't all survive.
I think the most recent version of the character in the comics is gay, and is the basis for this version.
Well, remember that Earth-1's Robert and Moira Queen were involved in a lot of shady, criminal business, and Oliver was a shallow, spoiled rich kid before Lian Yu. And remember what a dark path Oliver went down before Diggle and Felicity reshaped him into a hero. So it's easy to see how an Oliver Queen raised in a Nazi society could become the worst of the elitist, privileged bastards. Perhaps Earth-X's Robert was the previous Fuhrer and Oliver inherited the role.
Zari Tomaz, who's loosely based on the superheroine Isis created by Filmation for TV in the '70s and later adapted by DC as a character connected to Shazam/Captain Marvel's nemesis Black Adam. Although they aren't calling her Isis for the stupid reason that it sounds too much like the acronym the US media incorrectly use for the so-called Islamic State terror group.
I feel that Legends has kind of dropped the ball on the Martin/Jax relationship lately, since they've kept contriving ways to keep the two apart so they wouldn't have to spend money on Firestorm FX. But this crossover gave them a strong arc and really let Garber and Drameh shine.
I do wonder where Jax goes from here. Will it turn out he still has the Firestorm matrix within him? Will he get some other superpower? Will he and Ray build a supersuit for Jax? Or will he just go on as an unpowered team member like Sara? His arc in "Welcome to the Jungle" seemed to be setting up that possibility.
So, let's see. What happened here that will or might have ramifications for the individual shows going forward?
- Barry and Iris are married.
- Oliver and Felicity are married.
- Stein is dead.
- Thawne is not dead, again.
- A version of Snart is back.
As for what didn't happen to have a lasting impact, I'd say the biggest disappointment is that Barry didn't help Kara get out of her "I don't want to be human or have feelings anymore" funk. Also, it isn't yet clear whether Team Arrow's participation in fighting off the Nazi invasion will have any effect on Oliver's current legal woes back in Star City, but it seems unlikely. (Damn, if only that anti-vigilante vote had been a week later.)
Could you imagine the mayor of a major city personally beating back an invasion of Nazis, including striking the killing blow on the leader of the Nazis?
He would be re-elected for life.
I would love to know what happened to the Superman of that world, and why Kara X turned so evil. There obviously was a Krypton, and there was no reason to believe that Krypton also was a Nazi-type planet in that universe. So presumably, Kara was the same person when she landed on Earth. She wasn't a baby, so she should have had some good values and a basic knowledge of right and wrong. Why wasn't she part of the resistance.
Superman might be different--I could see HIM as either the Fatherland's greatest weapon or the Fuhrer himself--unless they killed him. But if they did that, why would they spare Kara?
I don't like kinder, gentler Snart. I liked the original Snart. But even a lamer Snart is better than no Snart at all, and I will add that Mick stole the show with each comedic quip.
Thanks to time travel, we can always see Stein again. I'm wondering if Stein's daughter will become half of the new Firestorm.
I also wonder if they will ever do a Blackest Night story in a future crossover.
He would be re-elected for life.
I would love to know what happened to the Superman of that world, and why Kara X turned so evil. There obviously was a Krypton, and there was no reason to believe that Krypton also was a Nazi-type planet in that universe. So presumably, Kara was the same person when she landed on Earth. She wasn't a baby, so she should have had some good values and a basic knowledge of right and wrong. Why wasn't she part of the resistance.
Superman might be different--I could see HIM as either the Fatherland's greatest weapon or the Fuhrer himself--unless they killed him. But if they did that, why would they spare Kara?
I don't like kinder, gentler Snart. I liked the original Snart. But even a lamer Snart is better than no Snart at all, and I will add that Mick stole the show with each comedic quip.
Thanks to time travel, we can always see Stein again. I'm wondering if Stein's daughter will become half of the new Firestorm.
I also wonder if they will ever do a Blackest Night story in a future crossover.
Overall, I loved the crossover. A ton of great stuff! Part 4 was the best part.
I do think that the crossover might have been even better if if they had ended it with the full Barry and Iris wedding, with Kara singing, Barry and Iris saying "I do" and leaving the church as the happy couple. That would have packed a bigger emotional punch. It seemed a bit odd to have a big ceremony, interrupt it, Barry and Iris actually never say "I do", and then say their vows and kiss in a park with none of their friends and family present? I mean, Iris did not even want her dad present for the final moment of their wedding?
I do think that the crossover might have been even better if if they had ended it with the full Barry and Iris wedding, with Kara singing, Barry and Iris saying "I do" and leaving the church as the happy couple. That would have packed a bigger emotional punch. It seemed a bit odd to have a big ceremony, interrupt it, Barry and Iris actually never say "I do", and then say their vows and kiss in a park with none of their friends and family present? I mean, Iris did not even want her dad present for the final moment of their wedding?
Over all I enjoyed it quite a bit. My main problem is pretty much the same for any Nazi win the war scenarios. There would be no resistance left, especially after 70+ years. I know we need them for the story and the eventual fall of the Reich but still it needles me.
Was it ever explained why the sky was red on Earth X? Just adding to the crisis feel maybe?
Was it ever explained why the sky was red on Earth X? Just adding to the crisis feel maybe?
Well, the real-world reason is that it was probably too expensive and too much of a scheduling nightmare to do two big wedding scenes. But there's also a story logic to it. You don't want to repeat yourself, and expectations are set up to be subverted. So you start by giving everyone all the big pageantry and ceremony and gathering of friends, then interrupt it with the big struggle, and then bring it down to the most intimate level, strip away all the rest and focus on just the couple(s) and what they feel for each other. People tend to assume that the climax of an epic story needs to be the biggest, most spectacular part, but it's often better to put the spectacle earlier and focus the climax on a smaller, more intensely personal scale.
Note that they did the same thing with Martin's death. They could've had all the Legends and Team Flash gathering to witness the final moments of their friend, but instead they kept it intimate, just Martin and Jax with no distractions. Sometimes the most important moments are small and personal.
There would always be resistance. Every dictatorship and empire in history has needed to put down uprisings and rebellions throughout its existence. Even when rebellion seems to be quelled, it's always going to be lurking just below the surface so long as oppression exists. I learned in my college history studies that where open resistance is crushed by brute force, people find subtler, smaller ways to resist authority and assert independence in their everyday life, whether secretly teaching forbidden history or religion to their children, preserving books and artworks that the state wants destroyed, or using the anonymity of burqas to smuggle resistance literature or hide cameras to document state atrocities. So the will is always there when the opportunity for more overt resistance arises.
Red skies in DC can have more than one meaning. The New Batman Adventures gave Gotham City a perpetually red sky, just to make it feel more dystopian and dark. That was probably the reason here as well. One can surmise that the rapacious regime has run roughshod over the environment and filled the air with smog and smoke and dust.
Arrow recently confirmed that Bruce Wayne exists on Earth-1, and Supergirl has repeatedly and strongly hinted that Batman exists on Earth-38.
The "Welcome to Earth-2" storyline on The Flash showed that Earth-2 Barry had people named Clark, Bruce, and Diana on his speed dial, although it's hard to see why a powerless, nerdy crime lab tech would be friends with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.
On top of everything else, they literally just went to a funeral for a good friend--one of the guests at the wedding, who got killed. Not exactly appropriate to throw cake and each other's faces and backwards toss a bouquet.
The real ceremony pretty much happened and the close friends witnessed it.
I also agree with the notion that a resistance would exist.
Assuming their history was indeed like ours but for the Nazis winning, that means that the US existed in the same form, with the same Constitution and the same American pride. Unless they killed all 140 million Americans, which they obviously did not, then the American culture would survive, even in secret. The desire for freedom and to return to that way of life would be passed down and rebellion would be inevitable.
Well, my idea would require a rewrite of the episode for sure.
Really? The ceremony was interrupted pretty early on. All the guests got to see was the bride walk down the isle, the preacher say a few words and then Nazis blew up the place. Except for our heroes who stayed and fought, all the regular guests were evacuated and probably scared to death. They did not get to see much of any wedding ceremony. I would think that close family like Joe would want to see the end of the ceremony.
A couple of behind-the-scenes videos, which would be better if they weren't also shilling some computer game that sponsored the event:
I'd forgotten that Dominic Purcell was English. How many Arrowverse cast members are faking American accents? Purcell, Franz Drameh, Maisie Richardson-Sellers, Keiynan Lonsdale, Paul Blackthorne, David Harewood, Tracy Ifeachor... anyone else? (Well, there's Alex Kingston as Laurel & Sara's mother, but she hasn't been seen in a few years. And I can't remember what accent John Noble used as the voice of Mallus.)
I'd forgotten that Dominic Purcell was English. How many Arrowverse cast members are faking American accents? Purcell, Franz Drameh, Maisie Richardson-Sellers, Keiynan Lonsdale, Paul Blackthorne, David Harewood, Tracy Ifeachor... anyone else? (Well, there's Alex Kingston as Laurel & Sara's mother, but she hasn't been seen in a few years. And I can't remember what accent John Noble used as the voice of Mallus.)
I doubt this is the same group that fought the Nazis decades ago. Just look at Winn's age. You don't become a general at that age unless a) no surviving hierarchy exists and b) you basically start the group from scratch.
Think of Winn as John Connor as described in the original Terminator. Humanity was completely defeated (living in work camps) before John taught them to fight again.
I had forgotten Purcell was English as well. I was thinking last night first I ever saw him in was the FOX series John Doe. Might have seen him do interviews with his real accent for that but that was at least 15 years ago.
So, they also said that there is a Supergirl on Earth 1, so why do they keep borrowing 'ours'? It was in an early part, explaining how there's multiples of everyone, and called out Kara specifically. Seemed odd, although I get the idea.
Didn't love how much was going on. Too many characters, everyone just sorta dumped into a big room. And then the annoying trope where in the huge fights, no one is trying to hurt anyone other than the faceless Nazis. And everyone always pairs off with a like-powered individual to fight, so no risk of mismatches or injuries!
I dunno, didn't love it, despite the 'fun' of getting the whole gang together
Didn't love how much was going on. Too many characters, everyone just sorta dumped into a big room. And then the annoying trope where in the huge fights, no one is trying to hurt anyone other than the faceless Nazis. And everyone always pairs off with a like-powered individual to fight, so no risk of mismatches or injuries!
I dunno, didn't love it, despite the 'fun' of getting the whole gang together
Can not help and wonder if Andrew Kreisberg recorded an interview for the crossover but was left out for obvious reasons. He and Marc Guggenheim are credited as co writers for the whole event and Marc is there but Andrew is not.
Haven't we covered this two or three times already in this thread? It's not just Earth, it's the whole universe. Maybe Krypton-1 never exploded. Kara-1 could be living there.
Or maybe Harry was just wrong. Just because he talks like he knows everything, that doesn't mean he's right. He assumed there was one Kara for each reality, but it's not like he'd actually visited every one and met all the Karas personally, so his statement was conjecture, not fact.
No doubt, but I think the important people saw what needed to be seen at the rehearsal dinner. Joe's toast pretty much says it all. The closest of the close saw the most important parts. The ceremony itself was icing on the cake, not the cake.
The writers are clearly not exploring this on purpose. When Harrison said that there are 53 Karas, and 53 Kryptons, it sure seemed odd that no one asked about Earth 1 Krypton and Kara. I hope they explore that later, or do a universe merging Crisis.
I'm thinking that Superman hasn't debuted on Earth 1 yet, which could mean that there's a time distortion and Kara is still in the pod. Imagine Krypton not exploding until say, 20 years before Flash, which would make Clark's debut imminent. Imagine Kara flying around in the pod, but the same age as Benoist. Same mission, same general goodness, just not 13 years old--more like 18-19. Clark debuts, does super things for a few years, and then Kara finally lands. Just because we haven't seen Kara on Earth one doesn't mean that she isn't going to be there eventually.
Same with Earth 38 Barry. All we know is that there is no Earth 38 Cisco or Caitlyn.
It's possible. Hopefully that mess is worked out. He's not accused of Harvey Weinstein level things.
I'd have to rewatch, but didn't they follow that up in literally the next breath with "53 Karas, 53 [blah blah blah]" I suppose that doesn't mean for sure that she travelled to Earth or that Krypton exploded...
Sorry, boss, mind recapping every post from the past 38 pages? Maybe I missed one. Skimmed a couple pages, didn't see what I wanted to ask about, and asked. apologies if it bothered you and your 'page down' button is broken...
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