DC to REBOOT???

[Captain Craig]

Batgirl #24.

As a finale, it was lovely.

And

Spoiler: Spoiler!

Stephanie as a Blue Lantern is entirely appropriate

. It would be a logical outgrowth of the character's personality as Bryan Miller wrote her.

What I liked is that it didn't end Stephanie as Batgirl. It gave us closure, but Stephanie's adventures go on.

I hope she turns up in the DCnU.

Interesting *ahem* Spoiler. Makes me wonder though if DC is going overboard with tying in too many characters to that um...system.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm actually more excited about it since I first heard the announcement.

Same here.

 

[Myasishchev]

^^^
How was Liefeld tied into that?
Acclaim bought Valiant then did a reboot. Which totally wrecked some of their cooler characters like Ninjak and Shadowman.
What did Rob have to do with that? Was he tied into Acclaim someway?

Nah, this is earlier. Deathmate.

Actually, I should have said "the comics industry," since my understanding is that Deathmates Red and Black (the Image component of the Deathmate crossover) were the tipping point for a lot of retailers. Like, millions of orders, which ran extremely late.

To be honest, I'm not sure if they hurt Valiant other than through splash damage. Iirc, the real point where Valiant started to suck was the ousting of Shooter and the unsustainable expansion of the line. Oh, yes, please let me read about what the H.A.R.D. Corps has become in the 41st century.

(Actually, that was a cool concept, but it should've been limited to another title--maybe Magnus or Solar, which at that point were flailing around with no obvious direction.)

Regarding Deathmate--this from the TV Tropes page (and if you can't trust a jokey wiki, whom can you trust?):

If the weak premise wasn't bad enough, Valiant's and Image's writers knew nothing about the other company's characters, resulting in a ton of Character Derailment, even though most of Image's side barely qualified as "characters" to begin with. The art, done in the over-the-top Image style, was disgusting to behold, and to top it all off, Deathmate may have been responsible for The Great Comics Crash Of 1996.

You see, Valiant (as a byproduct of its unique real-time continuity system) was super serious about shipping schedules and deadlines, and produced all its contributions on time. Image on the other hand was notorious for its Schedule Slip, so, the Valiant half of Deathmate was produced on time, but the Image half was produced late. (Rob Liefeld produced his contribution a year late, and only after the editor in chief of Valiant Comics came to his house, refused to leave until it was done and inked it in a hotel room.)

By the time the Image half came out, interest in it had dried up, but shop owners had pre-ordered massive numbers of issues when the cross-over had started, and were now left with mountains of unsellable comics. This, more than anything, contributed to the collapse of the comic industry in the 90's. Deathmate was also one of the events that lead to the fall of Valiant Comics, as it flooded the company with Image artists, and caused a fundamental shift in the way the company was run.

The advertisement for Deathmate said "Their love will end worlds!" While it was talking about Solar and Void, it could also be said to be true of Valiant and Image. This disastrous "pairing" did indeed destroy worlds: It destroyed the world where the comic book industry makes $500 million per year. It destroyed the world where Valiant Comics so much as existed, much less was the third highest selling comic company. And it destroyed the world of small comic book shops, many of which went out of business.

I dunno if that's all accurate, but the general consensus seems to be that the Image Deathmates (particularly Black, although that was the proto-Wildstorm contribution) were insanely damaging to the direct market.

I'm sure I've read a more "scholarly" (i.e., a blog) article about Deathmate, but I can't find it right now.

Fun fact, though, I own 'em all. They're sort of awful, but for a twelve year old they were pretty good comics. As an adult some parts still read okay, even if the ending come off as incredibly weird, with the fate of the universe hinging on the success of our heroes' COSMIC COCKBLOCK!

 

[Trevacious]

Or better yet, start an entirely new line while keeping the original intact (like the Ultimate Universe).

I thought that was where they were going with the All-Star line. Or the Earth One thing.

 

[Myasishchev]

Interesting *ahem* Spoiler. Makes me wonder though if DC is going overboard with tying in too many characters to that um...system.

Oh, God, yes.

Spoiler: I guess?

It doesn't help that those particular guys are the lameness.

Also, this just occurred to me, but where on that old emotional spectrum is "happy" and "sad"? I think you missed a couple, Johnsy!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I dunno if that's all accurate, but the general consensus seems to be that the Image Deathmates (particularly Black, although that was the proto-Wildstorm contribution) were insanely damaging to the direct market.

I think retailers were allowed to adjust their orders on Deathmate Red, which had the misfortune of coming out after the finale of the series.

Deathmate Black, however...

I'll put it like this. I have something like five copies of Deathmate Black in my longboxes. I only bought one. My dealer ended up using it as a bag stuffer just to get rid of the damned thing. (Same, too, with Image's Spawn/Batman.)

There was a point, though, where Deathmate Black was the one selling for the most, as it was the first appearance of Gen-13. These days, no one cares about Gen-13, and if you pay more than a buck for it, you've probably paid too much.

Here's that "scholarly take" on the Deathmate debacle, by the way.

 

[JoeZhang]

Batgirl #24.

As a finale, it was lovely.

And

Spoiler: Spoiler!

Stephanie as a Blue Lantern is entirely appropriate

. It would be a logical outgrowth of the character's personality as Bryan Miller wrote her.

What I liked is that it didn't end Stephanie as Batgirl. It gave us closure, but Stephanie's adventures go on.

I hope she turns up in the DCnU.

Interesting *ahem* Spoiler. Makes me wonder though if DC is going overboard with tying in too many characters to that um...system.

It's simply a

Spoiler: "spoiler

pin-up poster using the story device of being drugged, it's not "real

.

 

[Mike Farley]

I have to get something off of my chest: I am the reason for DC cancelling Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl. You see, several months ago, based on word of mouth (as with Myasishchev, I had not heard anything bad about the book), I picked up a few issues and then made the decision to start collecting the title monthly. I forgot, I am cursed.

It seems if I start a title after it's first year, it ends up being cancelled:

• Blue Beetle: I started with issue #18, the title was cancelled with issue 36
• R.E.B.E.L.S.: I started with issue #10, it was cancelled with #28
• Doom Patrol: I started around issue #16, it was cancelled with #22
• Nova: I started with issue #29, it was cancelled with #36
• Guardians of the Galaxy: Well, given my late start with Nova, I basically started just as it was cancelled.

I'm sure there are more titles, but those are all the recent ones I can think of.

To the fans of these titles, I can only say that I'm sorry, I didn't know.

*phew*

Feels good to get that out in the open.

Please start reading all but one X-Men title. I don't care which one, they're all the same.

Also anything written by Bendis that isn't POWERS.

 

[Myasishchev]

I dunno if that's all accurate, but the general consensus seems to be that the Image Deathmates (particularly Black, although that was the proto-Wildstorm contribution) were insanely damaging to the direct market.

I think retailers were allowed to adjust their orders on Deathmate Red, which had the misfortune of coming out after the finale of the series.

Deathmate Black, however...

I'll put it like this. I have something like five copies of Deathmate Black in my longboxes. I only bought one. My dealer ended up using it as a bag stuffer just to get rid of the damned thing. (Same, too, with Image's Spawn/Batman.)

There was a point, though, where Deathmate Black was the one selling for the most, as it was the first appearance of Gen-13. These days, no one cares about Gen-13, and if you pay more than a buck for it, you've probably paid too much.

Here's that "scholarly take" on the Deathmate debacle, by the way.

Groovy. Danke.

 

[23skidoo]

I agree that they should've just started a new "Ultimates" type line of books and damn the screaming about "ripping off Marvel".

I agree 100%, though it could be argued that titles like Superman-Batman and the recent DC Universe Online miniseries have already been going that route for a while. Search my comments and you'll see my objection to - and intended refusal to actually buy any of - the reboot has more to do with being offended at the ending of Action and Detective (see my sig), replacing them with bastard children, than any rejigging of the characters which is always a temporary thing. But I've been reading more and more about the plans for the rebooted characters and I'll be honest - as someone who has been buying $20 or more's worth of DC comics every week (or at least up till the end of this month) for the last 5 years or so, even if I didn't care about the renumbering of Action and Detective I'd probably still be calling it a day. The decision to revert Barbara Gordon to being Batgirl and in the process destroying Oracle, a character who has been a role model for the disabled for years, would have been the deal-breaker. I actually feel a little ashamed at being offended at the renumbering of Action and Detective when there was something far more meaningful to be offended about right under my nose. (Ironically, given my statement about rejigging always being temporary, Gordon becoming Oracle thanks to Alan Moore getting her shot in the Killing Joke some 20 years ago was actually one of the few character rejigs that actually held on. And now even it's being undone.)

Alex

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

There's no doubt that they should have done a "clean" reboot (whether that means starting over, or doing an alternate "over there" approach like aforementioned Ultimate line is up for debate)... but I really can't believe DC did YET ANOTHER half-assed reboot filled with continuity.

These idiot comic people never learn. Probably because they were all "brought up" on comics from the 70s-90s and they've internalized all of the bad things from that era.

 

[Admiral_Young]

For anyone interested Paul Levitz discusses all things LOSH:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=33805

 

[Snaploud]

The relaunched continuity is really a big mess and doesn't make sense at all. Batman is supposed to be meeting Superman for the "first time" in Justice League #1 or #2 and I think he has interacted with Hal a bit before as the preview issues for one indicated.

In the preview issues, Hal was surprised that Batman was real. They haven't met before Justice League #1.

Side note: I thought they tried to explain away the whole Superman as "the first superhero" and later said that Batman had been operating in secret for a number of years prior to Superman jumping onto the scene.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ You're right. I misinterpreted the scene from Bruce's reaction to Hal ring's light lol.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

I can accept Batman operating under the radar for years if all he's doing is stopping common criminals or mobsters or whatnot. But it becomes harder to believe if there's someone like the Joker running around, gassing crowds with his crazy formulas. For a superhero to be under the radar, there would either have to be no supervillians or at least they'd have to not make much of a splash. It's also harder to believe in this day and age when so many people have phones that take pictures and record videos (there was a recent Supergirl story that played into this). I'll be interested to see how they handle it.

 

[JD]

Can we expect to see any kind of early reviews in the next couple weeks?

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I doubt that. Reviews usually don't come out until the day of release. Even from retailers.

 

[Mr Light]

I just read the last Batgirl issue, and while I didn't really care for the character or the series (nothing against it, it just didn't wow me), that was a pretty sweet and touching ending.

 

[shivkala]

I have to get something off of my chest: I am the reason for DC cancelling Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl. You see, several months ago, based on word of mouth (as with Myasishchev, I had not heard anything bad about the book), I picked up a few issues and then made the decision to start collecting the title monthly. I forgot, I am cursed.

It seems if I start a title after it's first year, it ends up being cancelled:

• Blue Beetle: I started with issue #18, the title was cancelled with issue 36
• R.E.B.E.L.S.: I started with issue #10, it was cancelled with #28
• Doom Patrol: I started around issue #16, it was cancelled with #22
• Nova: I started with issue #29, it was cancelled with #36
• Guardians of the Galaxy: Well, given my late start with Nova, I basically started just as it was cancelled.

I'm sure there are more titles, but those are all the recent ones I can think of.

To the fans of these titles, I can only say that I'm sorry, I didn't know.

*phew*

Feels good to get that out in the open.

Please start reading all but one X-Men title. I don't care which one, they're all the same.

Also anything written by Bendis that isn't POWERS.

It probably wouldn't work that way, because, as I said, all of those titles I picked up within about 2 years of them starting (mostly between a year and a year and a half, except for Nova and Guardians). And all of those titles are second/third tier characters.

Oh and another common thread with all of those books, I got intrigued enough in them through posts at Scans Daily. Nothing X-Men has caught my fancy there. I was a big fan of Grant Morrison's run (what can I say, I'm a fan of his) and dropped the book when he left (mostly due to the fact that he was the only writer who got me to care enough about those characters for more than a few issues at a time and without a major event).

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Bryan Q. Miller explains the sequence at the end of Batgirl #24 and how it relates to where he would have taken the book.