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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

DigificWriter said:
Re: Snyder and Justice League, I've yet to see anybody using the theatrical cut of the film as an example of WB's 'course correction' explain why none of the films that followed it deviated from the overall general tone and aesthetic established by MoS and BvS, or why WB never demanded that Aquaman and The Flash be revised so that they were narratively compatible with the theatrical cut of JL.
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In Zack Snyder's Justice League, Mera is an orphan. ("My parents died in the wars. [Atlanna] took me in.") In Aquaman, her father is a major player in the narrative.

I don't recall Aquaman contradicting anything from the theatrical JL.

And the assertion that the wildly colorful, cheerfully goofy Aquaman shares anything with the "tone and aesthetic" of Snyder's DCEU films is certainly ... a perception.
 
DigificWriter said:
WB claimed that the theatrical cut of JL was the 'official' version publicly, yet didn't ask James Wan and the myriad writers of The Flash to change things to fit the story of said version of JL and whatever changes Whedon made to it, but nobody actually wants to address this fact because it greatly undercuts the argument that WB fired Snyder and 'changed course' during the production of JL.

Said argument is also undercut by the fact that Shazam, BoP, WW84, The Suicide Squad, and Black Adam all far more closely align, tonally, aestheticly, and structurally, with Aquaman (which, as mentioned, completely ignores any changes to JL's story and tone that Whedon made) than with the theatrical cut of JL, which is a fact that people also don't want to address.
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You think Aquaman and the 3 DC Snyder films are tonally identical? After actually watching Aquaman?
 
The Realist said:
In Zack Snyder's Justice League, Mera is an orphan. ("My parents died in the wars. [Atlanna] took me in.") In Aquaman, her father is a major player in the narrative.
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Not a contradiction given that Aquaman takes place after JL.

Also, James Wan specifically said that Aquaman as released was consistent with Snyder's version of JL and not specifically with the theatrical cut of that movie.

If the theatrical cut of JL was supposed to represent some seismic shift in the direction, tonally and aesthetically, from MoS and BvS, WB would, logically, have asked Wan to change things to match story changes made to the theatrical cut of JL, but that didn't happen per Wan's own admission.
 
DigificWriter said:
WB claimed that the theatrical cut of JL was the 'official' version publicly, yet didn't ask James Wan and the myriad writers of The Flash to change things to fit the story of said version of JL and whatever changes Whedon made to it, but nobody actually wants to address this fact because it greatly undercuts the argument that WB fired Snyder and 'changed course' during the production of JL.
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Indeed. Unfortunately, some hare so filled with raging hatred of Snyder for not delivering the same, worn kiddie versions of characters last in print some 60 - 70 years ago, that they will ignore the well-covered details behind Snyder not completing JL. That group of people would not dare acknowledge that, as it requires seeing Snyder as a caring human being, which cannot walk and-in-hand with their irrational Snyder-is-Beelzebub ranting. Further, they will never acknowledge the reason we have two, distinct versions of JL..yet one of them was not recognized as the official version, since--as you point out--its not the source material of The Flash.

Said argument is also undercut by the fact that Shazam, BoP, WW84, The Suicide Squad, and Black Adam all far more closely align, tonally, aestheticly, and structurally, with Aquaman (which, as mentioned, completely ignores any changes to JL's story and tone that Whedon made) than with the theatrical cut of JL, which is a fact that people also don't want to address.
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All boiling down to Whedon's failure being one of the true outlier productions of the DCEU. His investment in a mock-heroic adaptation to superhero concept and gross misunderstanding of the DCEU world has--thankfully--been replaced by the true vision.
 
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The Realist said:
Aquaman does indeed take place after JL.

In ZSJL, Mera's parents are dead.

In Aquaman, her father is alive.

For those of us who experience time in linear fashion, this would represent a narrative contradiction, were ZSJL "canon" to Aquaman.
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She also has a completely different accent in JL and Aqua than she does in ZSJL. Not quite as distinct a difference as her father being dead, but worth noting. ;)
 
The Realist said:
Aquaman does indeed take place after JL.

In ZSJL, Mera's parents are dead.

In Aquaman, her father is alive.

For those of us who experience time in linear fashion, this would represent a narrative contradiction, were ZSJL "canon" to Aquaman.
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As already stated, James Wan explicitly confirmed that the released version of Aquaman is consistent with Synder's version of JL, so calling the fact that Aquaman reveals her father to be alive a contradiction is tantamount to calling Wan a liar.
 
Snyder himself has acknowledged that ZSJL is not "canon" to the DCEU:
Warner Bros told me when I started this process that they consider the theatrical cut as canon to their DC Universe that they want to build out and that my version will always be like this outworld non-canon version.
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https://deadline.com/2021/03/zack-s...fisher-cyborg-joss-whedon-hbo-max-1234716917/

As noted previously, Aquaman is clearly inconsistent with ZSJL, whatever James Wan may have said on the subject. It's true, however, that The Flash muddies the waters somewhat, by appearing to reference events from ZSJL in dialogue.

(This, for anyone interested, is what's known as "arguing in good faith," i.e., acknowledging all available facts instead of denying those that contradict your preferred narrative.)
 
It's not like the canonical DCEU is all that consistent anyway. MoS shows Jonathan Kent doing everything he can to talk Clark out of helping people, with Clark becoming Superman in spite of his terrible example, but then BvS has Clark claim that being Superman is just acting out his father's wishes. And BvS shows the world divided and mistrustful toward Superman, with a lot of people hating and fearing him, but then JL (theatrical) claims that Superman was so universally beloved that his death threw humanity into its deepest despair in history. And then there's BvS's claim that Diana removed herself from humanity after WWI being refuted by her solo movies.

But you know what? It's never realistic to expect an ongoing fictional series to be perfectly consistent. It's always been the prerogative of storytellers to tweak their continuity as they go. Everything in fiction is illusion, and continuity is an illusion that often only holds up in broad strokes. The DCEU is no worse in that regard than most film series.

Anyway, I still say that the DCEU didn't start working until they stopped worrying about building the shared universe and just let each film be its own individual thing, with the universe just being a common background rather than the focus of the stories. I liked the contrast of the MCU being more serialized and the DCEU being more anthology-like. Which is why I'm not crazy about the plans for the new continuity.
 
The Realist said:
Snyder himself has acknowledged that ZSJL is not "canon" to the DCEU:

https://deadline.com/2021/03/zack-s...fisher-cyborg-joss-whedon-hbo-max-1234716917/

As noted previously, Aquaman is clearly inconsistent with ZSJL, whatever James Wan may have said on the subject. It's true, however, that The Flash muddies the waters somewhat, by appearing to reference events from ZSJL in dialogue.

(This, for anyone interested, is what's known as "arguing in good faith," i.e., acknowledging all available facts instead of denying those that contradict your preferred narrative.)
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That 'party line' is contradicted by reality, as
The Flash, as released, makes direct reference to things that only happened in Snyder's version of JL
 
DigificWriter said:
The Flash, as released, makes direct reference to things that only happened in Snyder's version of JL
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As I expressly acknowledged. But as always, you're cherry-picking only those facts that suit your position. The Aquaman inconsistency, even the words of The Great Snyder Himself ... ignored or denied simply because they don't fit your preferred version of events.

Lemme know if you'd like to have an honest discussion sometime. Otherwise, I'm disinclined to waste any further time on you.
 
I haven't seen the Snyder cut, so I don't know what it says about Mera's parents, but if they are explicitly dead there, than that's big contradiction with Aquaman that is pretty hard to ignore.
 
JD said:
I haven't seen the Snyder cut, so I don't know what it says about Mera's parents, but if they are explicitly dead there, than that's big contradiction with Aquaman that is pretty hard to ignore.
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Stating the apparent validity of a thing, only to later reveal that said thing was in fact inaccurate or false isn't a contradiction, it's a misdirection.

Case in point:
in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Glimmer's father, King Micah, was repeatedly stated to be dead, only for the main hero characters to learn that he was alive[./SPOILER]
 
JD said:
I haven't seen the Snyder cut, so I don't know what it says about Mera's parents, but if they are explicitly dead there, than that's big contradiction with Aquaman that is pretty hard to ignore.
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No reason to ignore it, because it's not a factor. The Snyder Cut is explicitly an alternative version of the story, an "Elseworlds" tale, as it were. It's never been claimed to be anything else. WB didn't even decide to finish the Snyder Cut until after Aquaman, Shazam!, Birds of Prey, and WW84 had been completed, so naturally those movies were consistent with the theatrical version instead.
 
Sequels containing contradictory information to previous film/s is nothing new. It's very, very old.
 
Kai "the spy" said:
Except The Flash referrences events that happened in the Snyder Cut but not the theatrical version.
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Ah, okay. Which is just one more inconsistency to add to the list I already mentioned. The DCEU has always been a loose continuity at best, like the majority of cinematic continuities over history.
 
DigificWriter said:
Stating the apparent validity of a thing, only to later reveal that said thing was in fact inaccurate or false isn't a contradiction, it's a misdirection.

Case in point:
in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Glimmer's father, King Micah, was repeatedly stated to be dead, only for the main hero characters to learn that he was alive[./SPOILER]
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True.

F. King Daniel said:
Yep, I popped when Bruce referred to Barry's time travel in ZSJL.
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As much as some would love their hopelessly false narrative alleging the Snyder films were somehow disconnected (in any fashion one dreams up) from other DCEU films, or that the Whedon JL was some needed "course correction" (which has yet to be proven), both allegations are false. Of course, the fact WB greenlit and spent more money to allow Snyder to complete his allegedly "non-canonical" JL film (closer to two films), then the studio used more than a few of its plot elements in The Flash (the heart of The Flash's plot would not exist without using said plot elements) means Snyder's version is canon.

All of the hand-wringing and screaming in the world cannot change that.
 
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