Uhhh... by watching it and thinking for yourself? I mean, sheesh, do you poll your friends' opinions about a food before deciding whether you think it tastes good?
DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
Uhhh... by watching it and thinking for yourself? I mean, sheesh, do you poll your friends' opinions about a food before deciding whether you think it tastes good?
Do you value your own personal opinion that much over the majority of mainstream movie goers and critics?
That is the line of thought that leads to the Snyder Cult in their tiny echo chambers. Not saying that you're part of that, but it's always good to be aware and consider all perspectives. Including the metrics of how the film was received with the public.
Remember this original discussion was about how the failed DCEU Superman was received by audiences. That's why discussing our own individual opinions is essentially irrelevant here. The studio had to go with what was the most financial viable move from a business perspective when they scrapped Cavill's version and are now rebooting fresh.
Yes.
See, I know myself. I don't know any of the mainstream movie goers. I don't know critics, and don't much agree with them most of the time.
I know me and what I like. And that is sufficient. Ad populism disturbs me.
You keep saying that Warner Bros. 'course corrected' after BvS, but the reality of the MoSSCU as it has unfolded doesn't support that claim, as the tone and general aesthetic established by MoS and BvS has persisted for the franchise's duration so far.
You still have a bad habit of replying to posts that aren't directed at you.
And we've already had this discussion... so why? Suicide Squad, hacked and re-edited by the trailer company.
Justice League 2017. Whedon brought on to make a more lighter, audience-friendly version after the reactions to BVS.
And that was just the beginning of the post-BVS course corrections to come. People were fired, hired, fired, etc It was a circus. Would make for a more entertaining movie than the DC content itself.
Proof beyond just hearsay?
Which subsequent movies flat-out ignored (despite WB officials' claims to the contrary).
Why not?You still have a bad habit of replying to posts that aren't directed at you.
It apparently amuses you so I'll take that as a connection.
https://www.vulture.com/2016/08/suicide-squad-was-recut-to-be-like-its-trailer.html
There's so much proof out there, and lengthy discussions about it from Ayer himself. You can look it up easily.
There wasn't a lot of consistency. After JL flopped, there were even more course corrections at WB. New regimes coming and going. Johns and Berg, the Hamada-verse.. etc It was essentially all downhill.
I'm not surprised The Flash is such a major financial flop, and audiences have checked out of the DCEU.
Why not?
It apparently amuses you so I'll take that as a connection.
I mean you're literally just revisiting topics and discussions that we've already had. That's really strange, but okay. No comment.
Do you not understand how a discussion board works? If you only want a response from a specific individual, private messages are available.
You asked a question; I felt I had an answer. I've never, ever, put stock in critics or other people's points of view on a film. And usually, people who are similar view films through their own lenses and don't want outsiders views. There's little value to it. Mostly because the people I see want to make up their own mind.
Yeah, what Christopher asked. Are polls taken to determine quality or can it be judged by an individual? I lean towards the individual.
Do you not understand how a discussion board works? If you only want a response from a specific individual, private messages are available.
I directed the question specifically at 'Christopher' and the other dude jumped in for attention. Happens often. No big deal though. Used to it.
I just don't like replying to multiple people about the same topic. It gets boring and repetitive. Maybe that's why Message Boards aren't as good for discussion nowadays.
Cool story, but the discussion wasn't about you.
We were talking about how the DCEU Superman tracked with mainstream movie-goers before the reboot.
Thanks for the derail again though.
1) That's not proof; its a second-hand article that references a news report that doesn't actually provide evidence
2) No matter how many times you keep saying the phrase 'course corrected', the reality is never going to match the fiction inherent in that claim
3) Casual audiences have checked out of the DCEU because Warner Bros. Discovery, David Zazlov, and James Gunn have publicly signalled that the film doesn't matter by announcing the things that are replacing the continuity in which it is set
And you're getting what you want, correct? With regards to the DC films? They seem to track along what is desired as expressed in this thread.
Why does this opinion perturb?
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Look up Trailer Park and their editing work on Ayer's Suicide Squad, and you'll get your answer. Ayer was even pushing for his original cut to come together before the studio interference, he's spoken at length on that.
And there's tons of articles from the Trades covering what happened I don't have time to look them all up (it's a Friday), but you could easily find em via Google;
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/suicide-squads-secret-drama-rushed-916693/
And Casual Audiences aren't hardcore enough to keep up with Zaslav and Gunn's antics. They tuned out of DCEU films even before Flash. We've had 6 consistent DCEU flops. They're checked out after a succession of poorly-received films.
Casual audiences have no idea what a Discovery, Zazlov or Gunn even are.
What a difference 7 years and mismanagement can make. I don't blame Zazlov for the current state of DC. I blame the previous administration of Hamada and Sarnoff. They were the ones responsible for charting the DC film's course after they fired Snyder in 2017 in the middle of Justice League. But they never found a new captain or came up with a new plan for their connected film universe.
Let us take a walk down memory lane of death by a thousand cuts.
Financial flop after repeated flop. Hamada greenlit a series of movies that had no connection to one another, outside of being comic book properties.
Theatrical Justice League (2017) - Flopped. This after WB execs bring in Whedon to make a clone Avengers film and reshooting large portions of the film. Inflating the budget.
Birds of Prey (2020) - Flopped. Who was asking for a Harley and Friends movie? WB however, submitted this film for Oscar nomination and it was rejected for nomination.
WW84 (2020) - Flopped. WB also submitted this film for Oscar nomination. For EVERY Oscar category, including best picture and it too was rejected for nomination.
The Suicide Squad (2021) - Bombed and according to Gunn there are no plans for a sequel. Despite Peacemaker season 2 and plans to migrate those characters to his new universe.
Black Adam (2022) - Flopped
Shazam 2 (2023) - Bombed
Flash (2023) - Bombed
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Don’t forget about the projects that Hamada had in development.
The cancelled Batgirl film that was fully filmed but reportedly awful. Reduced to a tax write off.
The cancelled Supergirl movie with Sasha Calle.
The pitched Wonder Twins movie that was canned for being too obscure.
The canned New Gods movie that had Ava DuVernay directing and Tom King writing.
The Justice League Dark movie JJ Abrams was signed on to do back in 2019.
The black Superman movie JJ Abrams was set to produce with Ta Neishi Coates writing.
The plans, THE PLANS, THE PLANS WB reportedly and repeatedly stated they had for Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps.
-------------------------------------------------------
The scattershot approach of comic book properties, with no overarching plot or “Avengers level event movie” to bring the characters together was a colossal mistake.
WB did this to themselves and for what reason, idk why. The audience wanted more Superman and Batman and WB was steadfast in rejecting that idea.
See Gunn’s original plan to have Cavil in his Suicide Squad movie, but WB shut him down. That idea is now being used by Marvel for their Thunderbolts (Marvel version of the Suicide Squad) movie. Where they will face Hyperion. A Superman clone character.
It was the same with Johnson’s plan to have Supes lead the JSA in the Black Adam movie. But was again shut down. The most we got was that little cameo shot in post-production.
Hell, even look at the Flash film. Cavil, Affleck and Gadot were supposed to have a scene at the end the film alongside Calle Supergirl, Barry and Keaton Batman. But this was scrapped. Since their is no future in the DC films for those 3 (now 4 after Miller's actions) Justice League actors.
WB had it all and did nothing with it but waste it. They have no one but themselves to blame. What a waste of and opportunity, talent and audience good will.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Look at how Marvel and Sony reacted to fan/audience demand.
When the audience wanted Spider-Man in the MCU after TASM2. Sony and Marvel came together to make it happen for Civil War. Less that 18 months after TASM2 hit theaters.
For new MCU Spider-Man both studios were keen to keep audience investment up. So RDJ’s Iron Man is heavily present in the marketing and alluded to throughout both Homecoming and Far From Home. Even after the character of Iron Man had died.
When audiences and fans demanded a live action Spider-Man crossover film between the 3 live action Spider-Men. Sony and Marvel listened and made that happen with No Way Home. That film making just under 2 billion at the box office.
Audience wanted Hugh Jackman to play Wolverine again. With Deadpool 3, Ryan Reyonlds and Marvel have talked Hugh Jackman back to reprising his role as Wolverine. Another fan favorite that audiences love and everyone is excited to see.
Imagine if WB had listened to its audience demands.
A World's Finest movie with Cavil and Affleck to make up for BvS.
Man of Steel 2 featuring Supergirl and Brainiac.
A John Stewart Green Lantern movie.
A Static Shock movie in the wake of Black Panther's success. Super-charged and superbad with the might of Soul Power!
----------------------------------------------
There's an old video of George Lucas talking about how executives and studio heads are not creative people. They only know that an IP makes money, but they don't understand how. So they end up greenlighting every project they can to replicate another person's success.
Case in point, the DCEU trying to replicate the MCU formula. With WB not understanding why the MCU was successful. The MCU started with it's big name characters (Captain America, Thor, Iron Man) and kept them at the center of the Infinity Saga story events. They used them to introduce smaller characters, kept them (mainly Iron Man) the focus of the Avenger's mega-events and then slowly phased in the obscure characters. Looking at how the MCU is on the decline now with Phase 4 and Phase 5. As they have run out of big name characters to tell stories about.
The WB studio heads and executives thought all they needed was to produce any comic book property and it would sell like hotcakes. Instead their plans are imploding for everyone to see.
Let us take a walk down memory lane of death by a thousand cuts.
Financial flop after repeated flop. Hamada greenlit a series of movies that had no connection to one another, outside of being comic book properties.
Theatrical Justice League (2017) - Flopped. This after WB execs bring in Whedon to make a clone Avengers film and reshooting large portions of the film. Inflating the budget.
Birds of Prey (2020) - Flopped. Who was asking for a Harley and Friends movie? WB however, submitted this film for Oscar nomination and it was rejected for nomination.
WW84 (2020) - Flopped. WB also submitted this film for Oscar nomination. For EVERY Oscar category, including best picture and it too was rejected for nomination.
The Suicide Squad (2021) - Bombed and according to Gunn there are no plans for a sequel. Despite Peacemaker season 2 and plans to migrate those characters to his new universe.
Black Adam (2022) - Flopped
Shazam 2 (2023) - Bombed
Flash (2023) - Bombed
--------------------------------------------------
Don’t forget about the projects that Hamada had in development.
The cancelled Batgirl film that was fully filmed but reportedly awful. Reduced to a tax write off.
The cancelled Supergirl movie with Sasha Calle.
The pitched Wonder Twins movie that was canned for being too obscure.
The canned New Gods movie that had Ava DuVernay directing and Tom King writing.
The Justice League Dark movie JJ Abrams was signed on to do back in 2019.
The black Superman movie JJ Abrams was set to produce with Ta Neishi Coates writing.
The plans, THE PLANS, THE PLANS WB reportedly and repeatedly stated they had for Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps.
-------------------------------------------------------
The scattershot approach of comic book properties, with no overarching plot or “Avengers level event movie” to bring the characters together was a colossal mistake.
WB did this to themselves and for what reason, idk why. The audience wanted more Superman and Batman and WB was steadfast in rejecting that idea.
See Gunn’s original plan to have Cavil in his Suicide Squad movie, but WB shut him down. That idea is now being used by Marvel for their Thunderbolts (Marvel version of the Suicide Squad) movie. Where they will face Hyperion. A Superman clone character.
It was the same with Johnson’s plan to have Supes lead the JSA in the Black Adam movie. But was again shut down. The most we got was that little cameo shot in post-production.
Hell, even look at the Flash film. Cavil, Affleck and Gadot were supposed to have a scene at the end the film alongside Calle Supergirl, Barry and Keaton Batman. But this was scrapped. Since their is no future in the DC films for those 3 (now 4 after Miller's actions) Justice League actors.
WB had it all and did nothing with it but waste it. They have no one but themselves to blame. What a waste of and opportunity, talent and audience good will.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Look at how Marvel and Sony reacted to fan/audience demand.
When the audience wanted Spider-Man in the MCU after TASM2. Sony and Marvel came together to make it happen for Civil War. Less that 18 months after TASM2 hit theaters.
For new MCU Spider-Man both studios were keen to keep audience investment up. So RDJ’s Iron Man is heavily present in the marketing and alluded to throughout both Homecoming and Far From Home. Even after the character of Iron Man had died.
When audiences and fans demanded a live action Spider-Man crossover film between the 3 live action Spider-Men. Sony and Marvel listened and made that happen with No Way Home. That film making just under 2 billion at the box office.
Audience wanted Hugh Jackman to play Wolverine again. With Deadpool 3, Ryan Reyonlds and Marvel have talked Hugh Jackman back to reprising his role as Wolverine. Another fan favorite that audiences love and everyone is excited to see.
Imagine if WB had listened to its audience demands.
A World's Finest movie with Cavil and Affleck to make up for BvS.
Man of Steel 2 featuring Supergirl and Brainiac.
A John Stewart Green Lantern movie.
A Static Shock movie in the wake of Black Panther's success. Super-charged and superbad with the might of Soul Power!
----------------------------------------------
There's an old video of George Lucas talking about how executives and studio heads are not creative people. They only know that an IP makes money, but they don't understand how. So they end up greenlighting every project they can to replicate another person's success.
Case in point, the DCEU trying to replicate the MCU formula. With WB not understanding why the MCU was successful. The MCU started with it's big name characters (Captain America, Thor, Iron Man) and kept them at the center of the Infinity Saga story events. They used them to introduce smaller characters, kept them (mainly Iron Man) the focus of the Avenger's mega-events and then slowly phased in the obscure characters. Looking at how the MCU is on the decline now with Phase 4 and Phase 5. As they have run out of big name characters to tell stories about.
The WB studio heads and executives thought all they needed was to produce any comic book property and it would sell like hotcakes. Instead their plans are imploding for everyone to see.
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No, I just think it's a category error to assume the two are competing answers to the same question. They're apples and oranges.
As I've already mentioned, many films that flopped on their initial release are now beloved and regarded as classics. If you think the initial reaction of critics is an absolute truth, you don't know your film history. All opinion is subjective, whether it's one person's or a million's, and thus all opinion is subject to reassessment. There have been films I hated the first time I watched and liked when I later revisited them, and vice versa. And audiences and critics can rethink their initial reactions too.
You have "Trek" in your username; perhaps you've forgotten that Star Trek was a ratings failure in its initial run and did not become a cult phenomenon until its years in syndicated reruns after its cancellation. Or that Deep Space Nine was always critically acclaimed but never as popular as its contemporary Trek shows. These things are not laws of physics. They're subjective and they can change.
How hypocritical. You're citing your own personal animus against Cavill as if it were the universal reaction of the audience. And I'm telling you as another member of that same audience that my problem with the DCEU Superman was not about Henry Cavill, but about Zack Snyder and the editors and executives who sabotaged Cavill's creation of the character. Your insistence on blaming the actor exclusively for the failure of the character to catch on is your opinion. You are only one person, and your vote counts no more than mine does. So don't pretend you speak for the majority. Have the guts to admit your opinion is your opinion, as I do with mine, instead of hiding behind the logical fallacy of the appeal to the majority.
I liked it quite a bit, and so have a lot of other people I've heard from. Again, it is facile to equate box office results with quality. The problem is that studios these days don't believe in small cult movies anymore. Everything has to be a gigantic blockbuster to have any hope of paying off the insanely bloated budgets poured into everything. The problem isn't that the movies are worse, the problem is that the bar for success is set impossibly high out of greed.
I agree that the DCEU films have been badly mismanaged. But that doesn't mean there aren't some gems among them.
Yes. When discussing them it's important to remember this is a business. It helps t9 show what's of interest.
I'll unequivocally state that these movies are all better than 95% of the MCU's output in the past 10 years; as @Christopher said, box office and/or 'critical' (an oxymoron if ever there was one) success doesn't equal quality.
I feel like "flop" should only matter in a financial sense, whether or not one liked the movie or not should be a separate thing.