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DC Comics: Rebirth

I don't know if anyone else wants to read it, but IGN posted a full, beginning to end synopsis of Rebirth #1.
The Bleeding Cool page froze my computer so I didn't see if it was mentioned there, but it sounds like they are actually setting up Dr. Manhattan as a bad guy. I'm a little surprised just how much of this appears to be undoing the New 52, I had expected that to be more of a small, subtle part of it, not the whole story.
 
JD said:
The Bleeding Cool page froze my computer so I didn't see if it was mentioned there, but it sounds like they are actually setting up Dr. Manhattan as a bad guy. I'm a little surprised just how much of this appears to be undoing the New 52, I had expected that to be more of a small, subtle part of it, not the whole story.
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If he's behind the new 52, is he really a villain for from the looks of it trying to fix the multiverse that Crisis on Infinite Earths wrecked. Everybody seems to not notice that the JSA, JL, and Crime Syndicate were put back on the Earths the came from by the New 52.
 
Nerys Myk said:
Did you miss the part where I said "The 60s"? The 70's was when the WWII fetish began creeping in, The DC Special story is a retcon not a retelling. The JSA had no origin in the Golden Age. The team was fully formed in their first appearance. The Star Spangled-Kid debuted in 1941, less than a year after the JSA and a year or two after the individual members in the original line up. He's pretty much a contemporary. His last GA appearance was in 1948. The "youngest" member of the GA JSA was Black Canary who didn't debut 1947.
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Well, like I said, "Flash of Two Worlds" in 1961 pretty solidly established Jay Garrick as a hero in the fourties, and pretty much said all of his comic stories in the 40s had actually happened. So, it seems like they meant the JSA to still be WW2 heroes even at that point.

Regardless, I consider them a group with a legacy in WW2, and a lot after WW2 obviously. I have a bias toward WW2 heroes (one of the reasons Roy thomas is in my top 5 comic writers is because of his work on WW2 heroes in the 70s-80s), so I hope that's what we get from the restored JSA. The WW2 stuff has been part of their history for the vast majority of their appearances until 2011. Not connecting the original JSA to WW2 is something they already did in the New 52 Earth 2 books. I'm betting the main Earth JSA will be WW2 heroes again.

Also, I read the ign link to the full spoilers. I'm somehow even more excited for the issue, it sounds great.
 
yeah, they just tried a JSA type book with no connection to WW II. i'd like to see a return to the JSA being comprised of a few old timers and legacy heroes.
 
kirk55555 said:
Well, like I said, "Flash of Two Worlds" in 1961 pretty solidly established Jay Garrick as a hero in the fourties, and pretty much said all of his comic stories in the 40s had actually happened. So, it seems like they meant the JSA to still be WW2 heroes even at that point.

Regardless, I consider them a group with a legacy in WW2, and a lot after WW2 obviously. I have a bias toward WW2 heroes (one of the reasons Roy thomas is in my top 5 comic writers is because of his work on WW2 heroes in the 70s-80s), so I hope that's what we get from the restored JSA. The WW2 stuff has been part of their history for the vast majority of their appearances until 2011. Not connecting the original JSA to WW2 is something they already did in the New 52 Earth 2 books. I'm betting the main Earth JSA will be WW2 heroes again.

Also, I read the ign link to the full spoilers. I'm somehow even more excited for the issue, it sounds great.
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If you accept the dates mentioned in Flash of Two Worlds, then the Silver Age Flash began his career in 1956 and Barry Allen is in his 70s. Do you want that too? I'm a firm believer in the sliding time scale for Super heroes and keeping the characters young(ish). I'm not interested in a JLA and Avengers with characters in their 70s or a JSA with characters in their 90s. Why only age the JSA in real time?

The new 52 version of the characters is nothing like I want. I want something like the JSA of the 70's All-Star Comics revival, with a mix of older heroes in their forties and fifties and younger heroes in their twenties and thirties. Not a bunch of young new heroes like in the Earth 2 book.

I don't see the appeal of keeping the WWII connection outside of nostalgia. It adds little to the story. OTOH I'd love to see a book like All-Star Squadron set in WWII and taking place on the PreCrisis Earth 2.
 
Nerys Myk said:
If you accept the dates mentioned in Flash of Two Worlds, then the Silver Age Flash began his career in 1956 and Barry Allen is in his 70s. Do you want that too? I'm a firm believer in the sliding time scale for Super heroes and keeping the characters young(ish). I'm not interested in a JLA and Avengers with characters in their 70s or a JSA with characters in their 90s. Why only age the JSA in real time?

The new 52 version of the characters is nothing like I want. I want something like the JSA of the 70's All-Star Comics revival, with a mix of older heroes in their forties and fifties and younger heroes in their twenties and thirties. Not a bunch of young new heroes like in the Earth 2 book.

I don't see the appeal of keeping the WWII connection outside of nostalgia. It adds little to the story. OTOH I'd love to see a book like All-Star Squadron set in WWII and taking place on the PreCrisis Earth 2.
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I was just disputing what you said about the 70s having WW2 nostalgia for the JSA. PRE-Crisis on Infinite Earths, in issues published in the 60s, Jay Garrick was established in his first Silver Age appearance as a WW2 superhero. It wasn't WW2 JSA "nostalgia" in the 70s, it was straight from the reintroduction of the golden age Flash. I never even hinted that I'd want the JLA members to be from the 50s/60s, I was just saying that, even in the 60s, they connected the Golden age JSAers with WW2.

WW2 is the core of the group. They came together because of WW2 (and yes, that was a retcon, but one that stayed in continuity for most of the team's time outside of the Golden Age). They fought through the war as both the JSA and All star Squadron. Also, the 70s All-Star revival was all about a group of World War 2 heroes and the younger people trying to join the legendary team. Why the hell does it matter if they're 90 or 50? Hell, the 70s All-Star Revival shares a lot of the same people as Geoff Johns run anyway, at least when it comes to the old JSAers. Being 90 slows very few of the living JSAers down.

Keeping their WW2 history gives them a legacy, and one that has been part of the group in every incarnation since they came back in the Silver Age. Yeah, some members are dead. So what? There is still a Doctor Midnite, a Mister Terriffic, and a Sandman. Is it super important that they be the originals? Some members died heroically, some died of old age. Some age slower, or got deaged, or don't actually age because they're sentient energy now. Some got replaced by their children or others. Its all part of what makes the JSA cool. There are a lot of other factors in that, obviously. But, in the end, they're a WW2 founded team. They've been associated with that basically forever. From actually fighting Nazis in Golden age stories, to 60s stories where it was established they fought in WW2, to the 70s where it was also established and they even fought WW2 villains. They're connected to the war. That's not even remotely all they are, its just a part. But its a noticeable and important part.
 
kirk55555 said:
I was just disputing what you said about the 70s having WW2 nostalgia for the JSA. PRE-Crisis on Infinite Earths, in issues published in the 60s, Jay Garrick was established in his first Silver Age appearance as a WW2 superhero. It wasn't WW2 JSA "nostalgia" in the 70s, it was straight from the reintroduction of the golden age Flash. I never even hinted that I'd want the JLA members to be from the 50s/60s, I was just saying that, even in the 60s, they connected the Golden age JSAers with WW2.

WW2 is the core of the group. They came together because of WW2 (and yes, that was a retcon, but one that stayed in continuity for most of the team's time outside of the Golden Age). They fought through the war as both the JSA and All star Squadron. Also, the 70s All-Star revival was all about a group of World War 2 heroes and the younger people trying to join the legendary team. Why the hell does it matter if they're 90 or 50? Hell, the 70s All-Star Revival shares a lot of the same people as Geoff Johns run anyway, at least when it comes to the old JSAers. Being 90 slows very few of the living JSAers down.

Keeping their WW2 history gives them a legacy, and one that has been part of the group in every incarnation since they came back in the Silver Age. Yeah, some members are dead. So what? There is still a Doctor Midnite, a Mister Terriffic, and a Sandman. Is it super important that they be the originals? Some members died heroically, some died of old age. Some age slower, or got deaged, or don't actually age because they're sentient energy now. Some got replaced by their children or others. Its all part of what makes the JSA cool. There are a lot of other factors in that, obviously. But, in the end, they're a WW2 founded team. They've been associated with that basically forever. From actually fighting Nazis in Golden age stories, to 60s stories where it was established they fought in WW2, to the 70s where it was also established and they even fought WW2 villains. They're connected to the war. That's not even remotely all they are, its just a part. But its a noticeable and important part.
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There is a difference between mentioning Jay started his career in 1940 and being a WWII hero. Captain America is a WWII hero. His origin is tied to the war. Flash, not so much.

I want Charles McNider as Dr. Mid-Nite, not Pieter Cross. I want Terry Sloan as Mr. Terrific, not Michael Holt. I don't want the legacies, I want the originals. And I want them young(ish) and vital.
What 60s stories established they fought WWII villains? They fought non-war related villains in the JLA-JSA cross-overs.
1963. The Crime Champions:Earth-1: Chronos, Dr. Alchemy, Felix Faust Earth-2: Fiddler, Icicle and the Wizard.
1964. The Crime Syndicate of Earth-3: Superwoman, Owlman, Ultraman, Johnny Quick, and Power Ring.
1965. The Earth-1 Johnny Thunder, the Lawless League, Medusa Man, Absorbo-Man, and Repello-Man.
1966. Solomon Grundy, Blockbuster, the Anti-Matter Man
1967. How Chu, Gem Girl, Horace Rowland, and Marty Baxter
1968. T. O. Morrow
1969. Aquarius, the Living Star
Not a Nazi in the bunch.
The first time we see a Nazi is the 1973 team up. And those are Earth X Nazis.

For me what sets the JSA apart is they are older experienced heroes not the WWII connection. I grew up reading the first JLA-JSA team ups, WWII just wasn't a factor. WWII to me meant Sgt Rock and the Haunted Tank.

I still wonder why the JSA has to be tied to WWII and the 40s, yet no one would tie the JLA to the 60s.
 
Rebirth was going to be my jumping off point for DC. I already left Marvel before Secret Wars 2015 started. Now that
Wally West is back
I may just have to stay around.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!
 
Nerys Myk said:
There is a difference between mentioning Jay started his career in 1940 and being a WWII hero. Captain America is a WWII hero. His origin is tied to the war. Flash, not so much.

I want Charles McNider as Dr. Mid-Nite, not Pieter Cross. I want Terry Sloan as Mr. Terrific, not Michael Holt. I don't want the legacies, I want the originals. And I want them young(ish) and vital.
What 60s stories established they fought WWII villains? They fought non-war related villains in the JLA-JSA cross-overs.
1963. The Crime Champions:Earth-1: Chronos, Dr. Alchemy, Felix Faust Earth-2: Fiddler, Icicle and the Wizard.
1964. The Crime Syndicate of Earth-3: Superwoman, Owlman, Ultraman, Johnny Quick, and Power Ring.
1965. The Earth-1 Johnny Thunder, the Lawless League, Medusa Man, Absorbo-Man, and Repello-Man.
1966. Solomon Grundy, Blockbuster, the Anti-Matter Man
1967. How Chu, Gem Girl, Horace Rowland, and Marty Baxter
1968. T. O. Morrow
1969. Aquarius, the Living Star
Not a Nazi in the bunch.
The first time we see a Nazi is the 1973 team up. And those are Earth X Nazis.

For me what sets the JSA apart is they are older experienced heroes not the WWII connection. I grew up reading the first JLA-JSA team ups, WWII just wasn't a factor. WWII to me meant Sgt Rock and the Haunted Tank.

I still wonder why the JSA has to be tied to WWII and the 40s, yet no one would tie the JLA to the 60s.
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Well, we obviously want different things. I honestly like the legacy heroes better in most cases, especially Michael Holt's Mister Terrific. No one connects the JLA to the 60s for the same reason that no one connects The Avengers to the 60s. They weren't formed by a real world event, they were formed by something that could have happened at any time. The JSA were formed in the 40s and explicitly fought Nazi's in the golden age. Then, comic writers used their origin tying them to WW2 and even FDR for most of their existence. Addition to the origin or not, WW2 is synonymous with the JSA. Its what they're known for, being a WW2 superhero group.

Of all the JSA fans, I think you're in a very small minority. I've literally never heard anyone complain about the JSA being formed in WW2 before. You're welcome to the opinion, but I'm pretty sure the JSA being from WW2 is always going to be a thing if they're trying to write the original JSA. Its just part of the group. I don't really feel the need to argue about it. Want what you want, it doesn't change how the original JSA has been written for decades when it comes to its origins, and (based on the fact that Johnny Thunder is alive but very old in Rebirth), it probably won't be written differently now.
 
For myself, I honestly don't care one way or another if they're tied to WW2 specifically. The key for me (a fan of the Johns-era late 90s-mid Aughts JSA) is that they be a team built on legacy with a core of heroes from a generation prior to Batman and Superman mentoring heroes of a generation younger than Bats and Supes. The WW2 connection is perfectly fine, but if they want to tie them to the Vietnam era or even the early 80s that's not a dealbreaker for me. Pieter Cross, Michael Holt, and Jakeem Thunder, and Sandy Hawkins are 'my' versions of the heroes, but that's because of when I started reading obviously.

I do think it's fair to say Michael Holt has pretty well bypassed Terry Sloan overall, and of course Stargirl is a pretty big part of the modern JSA as a double legacy. Otherwise though, so long as it's a mix of old and young I'm cool with how they want to mix it up.

For me, I want some combination of the following:

Green Lantern
Flash
Wildcat
Stargirl
Mr. Terrific
Dr. Mid-Nite
Sandman
Hourman
Hawkman/Girl/Woman
Power Girl
Jesse Quick/Liberty Belle

Frankly it's a potentially unwieldy cast and they need a good gender balance, so I think Stargirl, Hawkgirl, and Power GIrl or Jesse are pretty needed.
 
kirk55555 said:
The JSA were formed in the 40s and explicitly fought Nazi's in the golden age. Then, comic writers used their origin tying them to WW2 and even FDR for most of their existence. Addition to the origin or not, WW2 is synonymous with the JSA. Its what they're known for, being a WW2 superhero group.
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A lot of heroes fought Nazis in the Golden Age. Including Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Just as a lot of heroes are fighting terrorists right now. It's just a topical reference. And can and should be "swept under the rug" as times change. Yeah, I know it's a minority opinion when it comes to the JSA. But it's worked for Superman, Batman Wonder Woman and the rest of the Silver Age characters ( plus every character created since). Why not the JSA? Real time aging becomes more and more problematic as WWII recedes into the previous Century
 
Kestrel said:
For myself, I honestly don't care one way or another if they're tied to WW2 specifically. The key for me (a fan of the Johns-era late 90s-mid Aughts JSA) is that they be a team built on legacy with a core of heroes from a generation prior to Batman and Superman mentoring heroes of a generation younger than Bats and Supes. The WW2 connection is perfectly fine, but if they want to tie them to the Vietnam era or even the early 80s that's not a dealbreaker for me. Pieter Cross, Michael Holt, and Jakeem Thunder, and Sandy Hawkins are 'my' versions of the heroes, but that's because of when I started reading obviously.

I do think it's fair to say Michael Holt has pretty well bypassed Terry Sloan overall, and of course Stargirl is a pretty big part of the modern JSA as a double legacy. Otherwise though, so long as it's a mix of old and young I'm cool with how they want to mix it up.

For me, I want some combination of the following:

Green Lantern
Flash
Wildcat
Stargirl
Mr. Terrific
Dr. Mid-Nite
Sandman
Hourman
Hawkman/Girl/Woman
Power Girl
Jesse Quick/Liberty Belle

Frankly it's a potentially unwieldy cast and they need a good gender balance, so I think Stargirl, Hawkgirl, and Power GIrl or Jesse are pretty needed.
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I'm sure who (if anyone) is currently slated to write a new JSA title? But given the cancellation of JL United and Geoff John's major role in Rebirth I think we can pretty much assume that Courtney will be returning to her traditional JSA roots (as there's no way that Johns is gonna let her disappear into obscurity).

Other than that, I think they're not unlikely to favour JSA members with counterparts on TV so: Jessie Quick, Power Girl (even if she's Supergirl on screen), Mr Terrific (Curtis Holt on Arrow), the Hawks (or at least Kendra). Somewhat contradicting my own point, I think they're more likely to use Rick Tyler as Hourman rather than Rex ala LoT s2 as Rick has been involved with Jesse. Pieter Cross as Dr Mid-Nite would also be my preference as he has more history of working with the above, and is better known than Beth Chapel. I'd also like to include Atom Smasher, but he might be left out due to appearing as a villian on Flash, nor would I mind an improved version of Wildcat Jr/Tomcat (Bronson).

I also won't mind Jade & Obsidian as regulars as well (tho Stargirl has more recognition), but I think characters like Doctor Fate, Sandman, Jakeem Thunder and older, easily replacable characters like Garrick, Alan Scott and Ted Grant should be "guest" characters operating mainly in a mentor role (possibly similar to The Team during Young Justice Invasion?).
 
Well, I'm at least interested now. Still going to trade wait it though. Sounds like some backtracking and owning up to other mistakes is also occurring here. I expect a few new mistakes while course correcting but I'm hoping for the best.
 
Hound of UIster said:
Rebirth is suppose to be the last Johns comic for awhile. Abnett will probably be the next JSA writer.
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Potentially interesting, though isn't he primarily a LoSH writer when he's working for DC? Also, IIRC, he's still under exclusive contract with Marvel as far taking on any new work goes?
 
Nerys Myk said:
Currently he's writing Titans Hunt and Earth 2 for DC.
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Fair enough, someone needs to update his Wikipedia page then...

And yes, he does seem to be the obvious candidate for a new JSA title, esp if they end up emphasing that team as the "legacies" one, to the JLA's "big guns"/"leader" role (and I think they should distinct roles if they are both going to exist on the same Earth?).
 
Hartzilla2007 said:
If he's behind the new 52, is he really a villain for from the looks of it trying to fix the multiverse that Crisis on Infinite Earths wrecked. Everybody seems to not notice that the JSA, JL, and Crime Syndicate were put back on the Earths the came from by the New 52.
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In one of the panels someone made a comment about a war coming, and it seemed to me that they were talking about a war against Dr. Manhattan.
 
Wally's back, has a new costume and an old team
Wally%20West%20Titan_zpscznvrpcq.jpg
 
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