DC Comics Ongoing Discussion

[TheSeeker]

I don't do Bat-stuff, but I'll be checking out Absolute Superman -- albeit with very low expectations and little initial enthusiasm. I've been following reactions to its announcement on CBR's Superman forum, and there appears to be a lot of excitement, driven by the fervent hope that it will dispense with absolutely everything that makes a Superman story a Superman story, leaving nothing but an in-name-only version of the character and his world. It's all rather baffling to me. I mean, why is that desirable to supposed fans of the character? Do these people actually like Superman, or not?

Speaking for myself, I like seeing fresh takes on old characters. Don’t get me wrong, I love Superman as he is now with all the supporting cast that makes Superman who he is, and if it was a choice of only having traditional Superman or Absolute Superman, I would definitely choose traditional Superman.

But this is a case of being able to have your cake and eat it too, so I’m really looking forward to it. I am really enjoying the new Ultimate Spider-Man for the same reason.

Side note: It’s really nice to see the classic DC bullet back on the cover again. I think we probably have James Gunn to thank for that.

 

[The Realist]

That works for me. The kind of "fans" I'm talking about, however, seem energized more by a sense that most things Superman suck. In particular, there's a lot of hostility toward Lois Lane and her role in Superman stories, which always smells of very bad motivations to me.

 

[TheSeeker]

Yeah, I can’t argue with that. To me, Lois is an integral part of Superman.

 

[The Realist]

Or vice versa. Personally, I come to Superman stories about 51 percent for Lois.

 

[JD]

That works for me. The kind of "fans" I'm talking about, however, seem energized more by a sense that most things Superman suck. In particular, there's a lot of hostility toward Lois Lane and her role in Superman stories, which always smells of very bad motivations to me.

People have a problem with Lois? She's always been one of the most important parts of the Superman comics, I don't see how you could be a Superman fan and have a problem with her.

 

[Nerys Myk]

People have a problem with Lois? She's always been one of the most important parts of the Superman comics, I don't see how you could be a Superman fan and have a problem with her.

Some folks like the old Lois who plays tricks so Superman will reveal his secret identity, makes Superman jealous or winds up in peril.

Thankfully that Lois was already being phased out when I started with comics.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

People have a problem with Lois? She's always been one of the most important parts of the Superman comics, I don't see how you could be a Superman fan and have a problem with her.

Even Homer Simpson was one of 'em.

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[TheSeeker]

Or vice versa. Personally, I come to Superman stories about 51 percent for Lois.

Did you read the Lois Lane mini-series that Greg Rucka wrote a few years back? I really enjoyed it.

 

[The Realist]

People have a problem with Lois? She's always been one of the most important parts of the Superman comics, I don't see how you could be a Superman fan and have a problem with her.

Well, you're not a secret (or not-so-secret) misogynist, so ....

For a certain segment of fans, Lois is a ball and chain, a "mid" woman with an attitude who isn't hot enough or super enough for Superman, who domesticates their macho fantasy figure and turns him into a "simp" for her. As an example, check out the consummate fucking prick going by RepHope in this thread. A few of his gems:

"Putting her six feet under would be the best use of her in years"

"his boring wife who nags him all day"

"awful love interest in Lois who constantly emasculates him"

"simping after the local mid when he could be having way more interesting girlfriends"

"It’s an opinion that Lois is smart and engaging in all iterations. Most people wouldn’t agree, most people don’t like her. Most common word I see used to describe Lois is 'bitch.'"

And he's not the only one of his ilk out there.

 

[kirk55555]

I hated a lot about New 52 Superman, but him not being with Lois and being with WW instead was one of the worst bits. The fact that the New 52 Action Comics, which is most of what I've read with that version of Superman, barely uses his romantic life at all in its stories is probably one of the reasons I got so far in it (from Grant Morrison's first issue all the way until Superman lost his powers and shaved his head, which was a bad enough story to make me stop reading).

That said, I would like a cartoon or live action show that actually makes Superman the main character again. No "Lois &" or "& Lois" or "My Adventures With...", just Superman as the title character and maybe Lois shows up as a supporting character. I don't want main character Lois Lane any more, hopefully the Gunn movie keeps her as a supporting character. The Reeve movies did a good job of keeping Superman/Clark at the front but still giving Lois a decent role (outside of Superman III), thats about the level of Lois I personally prefer in Superman stories, especially since Lois has really been hogging the spotlight in adaptations for the last few decades.

So yeah the anti Lois people are lame, but I am personally a bit sick of her being the main focus of pretty much every Superman adaptation in the last 20ish years (the DCAU and Smallville Lois' were probably the last versions of Lois that I liked outside of the comics).

 

[JD]

This talk of Superman and Lois reminded me of something I've been wondering about with one of my other favorite comics couples. What is with Marvel's sudden obsession with splitting up Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson? It seems like every few years since One Day More they've gone back and forth between splitting them up, then getting them back together, and then splitting them up again. I know at one point they even moved her over to the Iron Man comics, but I haven't read any of them so I don't if she was his love interest or just a platonic supporting character.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This talk of Superman and Lois reminded me of something I've been wondering about with one of my other favorite comics couples. What is with Marvel's sudden obsession with splitting up Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson? It seems like every few years since One Day More they've gone back and forth between splitting them up, then getting them back together, and then splitting them up again. I know at one point they even moved her over to the Iron Man comics, but I haven't read any of them so I don't if she was his love interest or just a platonic supporting character.

It gets the "clicks"?

 

[The Realist]

Did you read the Lois Lane mini-series that Greg Rucka wrote a few years back? I really enjoyed it.

I read it, but I fear I found it a disappointment. It started off well, but Rucka later seemed inexplicably determined to make Lois a supporting character in her own maxiseries.

I was also underwhelmed by Mindy Newell's 1986 miniseries. IMO, Lois has never had a solo comics series that was worthy of her.

(My dream is for my favorite comics writer, Tom King, to do a Lois maxiseries. I think he could do wonders with the character.)

Even Homer Simpson was one of 'em.

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Get bent, Homer.

 

[TheSeeker]

(My dream is for my favorite comics writer, Tom King, to do a Lois maxiseries. I think he could do wonders with the character.)

That would be fantastic.

 

[The Realist]

I hated a lot about New 52 Superman, but him not being with Lois and being with WW instead was one of the worst bits. The fact that the New 52 Action Comics, which is most of what I've read with that version of Superman, barely uses his romantic life at all in its stories is probably one of the reasons I got so far in it (from Grant Morrison's first issue all the way until Superman lost his powers and shaved his head, which was a bad enough story to make me stop reading).

That said, I would like a cartoon or live action show that actually makes Superman the main character again. No "Lois &" or "& Lois" or "My Adventures With...", just Superman as the title character and maybe Lois shows up as a supporting character. I don't want main character Lois Lane any more, hopefully the Gunn movie keeps her as a supporting character. The Reeve movies did a good job of keeping Superman/Clark at the front but still giving Lois a decent role (outside of Superman III), thats about the level of Lois I personally prefer in Superman stories, especially since Lois has really been hogging the spotlight in adaptations for the last few decades.

So yeah the anti Lois people are lame, but I am personally a bit sick of her being the main focus of pretty much every Superman adaptation in the last 20ish years (the DCAU and Smallville Lois' were probably the last versions of Lois that I liked outside of the comics).

You, sir, are officially my mortal enemy.

Lois Lane is the very best thing about Superman stories, and the more prominence she is given, the better. And AFAIC, the love story of Lois and Clark is the heart and soul of the Superman saga. Everything else in the franchise is secondary.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My dream is for my favorite comics writer, Tom King, to do a Lois maxiseries. I think he could do wonders with the character.)

You said the name. Woe unto you.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

(My dream is for my favorite comics writer, Tom King, to do a Lois maxiseries. I think he could do wonders with the character.)

Well, who knows. Having previously written Supergirl, currently writing Wonder Woman and Jenny Sparks, and writing an upcoming Black Cannary mini series, King appears to be making his way through DC's female heavy hitters.

 

[kirk55555]

You, sir, are officially my mortal enemy.

Lois Lane is the very best thing about Superman stories, and the more prominence she is given, the better. And AFAIC, the love story of Lois and Clark is the heart and soul of the Superman saga. Everything else in the franchise is secondary.

I don't dislike her, but when I read a Superman story I want Superman. I don't read Wonder Woman for Steve Trevor, Batman for whoever he's dating at the moment, The Flash for Iris, Green Lantern for Carol, etc. Lois is a good supporting character, but thats what she is, a supporting character. She is there to support Superman, not take or even share the spotlight. She's good as his wife but also good as just a co-worker he rescues a lot.

To say that everything in Superman's franchise is secondary to Lois is ridiculous. Most of the best Superman stories in every medium don't even feature her as anything but a side character, and in my opinion the worst Superman adaptations (Lois & Clark, Superman & Lois, My Adventures with Superman, and Man of Steel) all suffer from too much Lois (although to be fair those last three adaptations have big problems that go beyond Lois). Give me Superman: TAS where Lois is a frequently appearing but rarely important side character any day over the Lois obsessed stuff. Smallville probably had the best mix of using Lois in important roles but not obnoxiously, but it also didn't introduce her until Season 4 and so the rest of the cast was solidly there before she showed up.

Anyway its not a huge deal to me. Lois definitely won't be the main character of Gunn's movie, and I don't watch the MAwS cartoon so its not I have to deal with any of the obnoxious versions of the character.

I am actually reading All Star Superman right now and its pretty good. Lois has only been in maybe an issue and a half so far, so apparently Grant Morrison also puts Superman over Lois in the Superman franchise hierarchy (I just wish he had a better artist, Quitely's Superman work is better then his X-Men work but still a lot worse then the story deserves).

 

[The Realist]

You say you don't dislike Lois, but you couldn't prove it by much of that post. At best, it sounds like you maybe find her tolerable as long as she minds (what you perceive as) her narrative place. Fortunately, many modern adaptations are not quite so regressive in their approach to one of pop culture's most enduring and dynamic female characters -- to your chagrin, and my delight.

If you think Gunn is going to sideline her in Superman '25, however, I think you may be disappointed. I expect she will have at least as prominent a role as Amy Adams did in Man of Steel -- probably more so. Gunn's too smart to try to put Lois Lane in a corner, or an actress of Rachel Brosnahan's talent and appeal. Why would he bench his best players?

 

[JD]

Yeah, I can't imagine Gunn would have cast someone like Rachel Brosnahan, if he wasn't going to be giving her a big role in his DCU.