DC Comics Ongoing Discussion

[kirk55555]

Speaking of Tom King, and I apologize if this has been discussed already, but am I the only one that is kind of bummed that King's working with James Gunn on the DC movies and not Geoff Johns?

I'm a big Johns fan. I've enjoyed his work since JSA and followed him to his Superman, Green Lantern, New 52 JLA, and Batman Earth 1 runs. I think he has such a great ability to reassert and rehabilitate characters (I mean, pulling Hal Jordan out of what DC did to him was pretty amazing and I think he is also so good at using and respecting a character's history and also being able to plot and hit great story beats.

So we have a new Lanterns TV show coming up and these other DC projects and Geoff Johns is nowhere to be seen. He was involved in the original DCU films of course, so why isn't he involved here? Did that JLA business with Joss Whedon stick to him and/or the failure of the prior DC films regime? If so, I kind of think that's unfair. He was never ever truly in charge of the DC films universe and the execs above him were the ones who handed the keys to Zach Snyder, who was never ever interested in the traditional and optimistic depictions of DC's characters. Snyder was a fan of edgy comics like The Dark Knight Strikes Again and Watchmen

Pre-2011 Geoff Johns was one of my favorite writers, but starting with the New 52 he really went downhill and at this point I don't think he's had a good comic in a decade, so I definitely wouldn't want him working with Gunn.

On the other hand, Tom King has literally never had a good comic and has nothing but disdain for DC Comics and its characters, so he's almost certainly an even worse choice then Geoff Johns when it comes to who should work with Gunn.

With King DC Comics has had to deal with abusive boyfriend Guy Gardner (technically non-canon but still bullshit), literal braindead moron Booster Gold (that goes against literally decades of characterization), cold blooded murderer Supergirl, Serial Killer Wally West, Naked & Screaming Idiot Savant Bane, dumbass relationship trouble Batman & Catwoman, and just a lot of pointless death and characters acting out of character because Tom King has 100% definitely never read a single DC Comic that he didn't write.

Now Gunn isn't a pushover, he's not going to ruin characters like Guy Gardner because of Tom King, but at bare minimum that Supergirl movie is completely fucked (a True Grit ripoff where Supergirl murders a man, fuck that comic). I'd also be wary of the Batman movie they have planned if King gets involved with it, his batman run is not even that popular with a lot of King's super fans.

 

[TheSeeker]

 

[rocketscientist]

Pre-2011 Geoff Johns was one of my favorite writers, but starting with the New 52 he really went downhill and at this point I don't think he's had a good comic in a decade, so I definitely wouldn't want him working with Gunn.

On the other hand, Tom King has literally never had a good comic and has nothing but disdain for DC Comics and its characters, so he's almost certainly an even worse choice then Geoff Johns when it comes to who should work with Gunn.

With King DC Comics has had to deal with abusive boyfriend Guy Gardner (technically non-canon but still bullshit), literal braindead moron Booster Gold (that goes against literally decades of characterization), cold blooded murderer Supergirl, Serial Killer Wally West, Naked & Screaming Idiot Savant Bane, dumbass relationship trouble Batman & Catwoman, and just a lot of pointless death and characters acting out of character because Tom King has 100% definitely never read a single DC Comic that he didn't write.

Now Gunn isn't a pushover, he's not going to ruin characters like Guy Gardner because of Tom King, but at bare minimum that Supergirl movie is completely fucked (a True Grit ripoff where Supergirl murders a man, fuck that comic). I'd also be wary of the Batman movie they have planned if King gets involved with it, his batman run is not even that popular with a lot of King's super fans.

Hey, kirk, thanks for the info.

I just don't know Tom King. I was an avid reader, but now with Kids, I am probably 8 years behind. Like I said, I think I only read that one comic where Hal got Lightray's New God power that was written by King. I liked it, but that's all I read. I have his first Batman Rebirth collection, but I haven't read it. I am aware of how badly he treated Wally West in Heroes in Crisis. It sounded just horrible, akin to what they did in Hal in ET. Has that been retconned. And, honestly, I never thought Barry Allen ever had to come back. That was always a bad call imo.

But, yeah, from what I've read about King, it just seems like he does what he wants with established characters, like he doesn't really care how they were previously depicted. I see some controversy attached to this guy, in comparison to Johns, whose work was largely lauded.

And, btw, what didn't you like about Johns New 52 work. From the interviews I read, it sounds like he wasn't in favor of the reboot at all. That seemed like it was all Diane Nelson, Didio and Lee. I think Johns just tried to make the best of it with JLA and I really thought that run, as well as the end of his GL run, were just great.

 

[rocketscientist]

Not me. I think King's the hands-down finest writer ever to work in mainstream American comics.

(Not that I dislike Johns's work, mind you. In fact, I like some of it very much. But between him and King, Gunn's definitely working with the superior writer IMO.)

Thanks for the opinion. I've got King's first 12 issues of Batman at home. I'll read them and make up my own mind.

 

[rocketscientist]

King's in because Gunn wants each episode of the series to have at least one scene of quickly cut shots of talking heads finishing each others sentences. As for Johns, he's been working on programs for quite a while now and I imagine Gunn wants someone new.

Well, yeah, I know Johns was working on the Arrowverse and other TV shows, but those have all wrapped up. What is Johns doing now, besides his recent Flashpoint and JSA work? Is he effectively in the WB doghouse now? Or is he even doing anything else for DC comics?

 

[The Realist]

Thanks for the opinion. I've got King's first 12 issues of Batman at home. I'll read them and make up my own mind.

FWIW, I think few would consider King's Batman run his best work. In fact, it's one of two projects that seem to earn him the most bile from his haters (the other being Heroes in Crisis). I like everything I've read by him, to a greater or lesser degree, but standalone graphic novels (originally mini/maxiseries) are where he shines brightest. My personal favorites by him -- and, indeed, my favorite graphic novels by anybody -- are Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow and The Human Target.

 

[The Realist]

Well, yeah, I know Johns was working on the Arrowverse and other TV shows, but those have all wrapped up. What is Johns doing now, besides his recent Flashpoint and JSA work? Is he effectively in the WB doghouse now? Or is he even doing anything else for DC comics?

IIRC, Johns started up his own indie/creator-owned company, maybe in collaboration with somebody else? I don't remember the deets, but I'm sure you can Google them. Think his recent JSA project may be his last for DC, at least anytime soon.

 

[The Realist]

BTW, kirk55555's little screed against King above is mostly opinion -- wholly wrongheaded though it may be, IMO -- but some of it pushes frothing hyperbole into objective factual inaccuracy. For one thing, King most certainly did not turn Wally West into a "serial killer," nor does Supergirl murder anyone in WoT. Also, the charge that King has "never read a single DC Comic that he didn't write" is ridiculous on its face, since his stories are often steeped in the characters' history and lore. kirk55555 just doesn't like how he develops his characterizations from that lore, which is of course his prerogative.

 

[Santa Kang]

John's started losing steam around the time JSA was relaunched as Justice Society of America . The last relaunch was marred by lateness. John's was kind of obsessed with creating new legacies and reforming villains there and in Stargirl: The Lost Children. The Boom has a cool costume but did we need another teen speedster in the already bloated Flash Family? I/m still confused by the Legion's status. Is the Bendis LSH gone?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

IIRC, Johns started up his own indie/creator-owned company, maybe in collaboration with somebody else? I don't remember the deets, but I'm sure you can Google them. Think his recent JSA project may be his last for DC, at least anytime soon.

Geoff John's main project currently

 

[JoeZhang]

Leaving aside his creator controlled business, Johns was linked with the previous regime so it was unlikely he'd be involved with this one.

 

[TheSeeker]

Yeah, Johns was linked to some pretty bad behaviour.

 

[rocketscientist]

Leaving aside his creator controlled business, Johns was linked with the previous regime so it was unlikely he'd be involved with this

Yeah, that's what I figured. I just think it's really sad and unfortunate. I love Johns' (and Waid's for that matter) stories and his takes on the characters. I don't know why Lanterns or even a new GL film isn't primarily steered by Johns given that he turned out to be probably the greatest GL creator in DC history.

 

[rocketscientist]

Yeah, Johns was linked to some pretty bad behaviour.

Yeah, he got accused by Ray Fisher of "enabling" Joss Whedon. Now, Fisher was saying Whedon was a racist IIRC, but everyone else was saying he was just a complete jerk and a creepy misogynist. He's gone. I don't know what Johns did or the other exec who was accused along with him. I can see Johns supporting Whedon because he just wanted to get the film done and he thought Whedon was the guy for the job to lighten up Snyder's film, which WB obviously wanted to do after the reception to BatmanvSuperman.

But whatever, I get the sense that Johns is persona non grata at Warner's now, either from the failure of Justice League and/or the whole Whedon/Fisher incident. I think it's a shame as I think (or at least I would hope) that Geoff is a good guy who just got in over his head. I'd like to ask James Gunn about why Geoff isn't involved and what he thinks about Geoff's stories.

 

[The Realist]

Yeah, that's what I figured. I just think it's really sad and unfortunate. I love Johns' (and Waid's for that matter) stories and his takes on the characters. I don't know why Lanterns or even a new GL film isn't primarily steered by Johns given that he turned out to be probably the greatest GL creator in DC history.

Speaking of Waid, it seems he may be done with writing superhero comics after this week's election:

I don't believe in the basic goodness of my fellow Americans anymore, and without this, I cannot write superheroes. There's no point. When you see a decline in the quality of my work soon, you'll be able to trace it back to this night…

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/comic-book-folk-react-to-donald-trump-presidential-victory/

Hopefully this was just disappointment and disillusionment in the moment, and Waid will be able to find his creative optimism again.

(I'm going to refrain from offering any political opinion on Waid's comment, since that's what TNZ is for. Treat this instead as simply a factual DC news item.)

 

[rocketscientist]

Speaking of Waid, it seems he may be done with writing superhero comics after this week's election:

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/comic-book-folk-react-to-donald-trump-presidential-victory/

Hopefully this was just disappointment and disillusionment in the moment, and Waid will be able to find his creative optimism again.

(I'm going to refrain from offering any political opinion on Waid's comment, since that's what TNZ is for. Treat this instead as simply a factual DC news item.)

Thanks for that. Read through the reactions. Lots of interesting observations and, of course, like Waid, a lot of pain.

I'll refrain from commenting too.

 

[Set Harth]

"The algorithm threw me 4 Non Blondes "What's Up" as I watch kids go to school, and people shuffle off to work and that's the moment where I finally broke down"

 

[JD]

Hey, kirk, thanks for the info.

I just don't know Tom King. I was an avid reader, but now with Kids, I am probably 8 years behind. Like I said, I think I only read that one comic where Hal got Lightray's New God power that was written by King. I liked it, but that's all I read. I have his first Batman Rebirth collection, but I haven't read it. I am aware of how badly he treated Wally West in Heroes in Crisis. It sounded just horrible, akin to what they did in Hal in ET. Has that been retconned. And, honestly, I never thought Barry Allen ever had to come back. That was always a bad call imo.

But, yeah, from what I've read about King, it just seems like he does what he wants with established characters, like he doesn't really care how they were previously depicted. I see some controversy attached to this guy, in comparison to Johns, whose work was largely lauded.

And, btw, what didn't you like about Johns New 52 work. From the interviews I read, it sounds like he wasn't in favor of the reboot at all. That seemed like it was all Diane Nelson, Didio and Lee. I think Johns just tried to make the best of it with JLA and I really thought that run, as well as the end of his GL run, were just great.

It's worth keeping in mind that a lot of King's stuff is part of the Black Label line which are intended to be more mature alternate takes on the characters, and things like that almost always take the characters to extremes.

Speaking of Waid, it seems he may be done with writing superhero comics after this week's election:

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/comic-book-folk-react-to-donald-trump-presidential-victory/

Hopefully this was just disappointment and disillusionment in the moment, and Waid will be able to find his creative optimism again.

(I'm going to refrain from offering any political opinion on Waid's comment, since that's what TNZ is for. Treat this instead as simply a factual DC news item.)

Yeah, that's the opposite reaction people should have in a situation like this. At times like this we need optimistic and positive heroes more than ever.

 

[JD]

Anybody here read the Batman '66 comic? I'm going to be starting it later tonight.

 

[Santa Kang]

Anybody here read the Batman '66 comic? I'm going to be starting it later tonight.

They are fun. Most of the TV/Movie comic book sequels are. I'm surprised they haven't made a Justice League with Superman '78, Wonder Woman '75, Batman '89 and Flash '90. I suppose they could use Shazam '74, Isis and Swamp Thing '90 too.