Well the problem isn't that he's a nice guy but rather that he acts like a nice guy but is in fact a total dick.
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Well the problem isn't that he's a nice guy but rather that he acts like a nice guy but is in fact a total dick.
The other problem with some (though certainly not all) self-described "nice guys" is that they are not truly nice - they are merely not actually horrible. The absence of concret bad qualities isn't enough to make you a genuinely nice person. For that you need good qualities.
I had a friend once who came across as a super nice guy, and always made 'friends' with any attractive woman he met who had a boyfriend, and then he would sensitively listen to them complain about their boyfriend, and then he'd sleep with them when they'd be vulnerable. He wasn't really interested in having a girlfriend of his own. Probably figured she'd have a sensitive nice-guy friend.
That's actually a pretty good plan. Sorta evil but effective nonetheless.
Exactly. Privately it may bother you (and that's fine), but you shouldn't moan about it in public as it's just a turn-off. I prefer just being sarcastic.
Kidding aside, the whole "nice" dilemma is a loaded issue. I don't consider myself a particularly nice person, but when a lady catches my fancy, I find myself actually wanting to be nice. The difficulty, then, is not so much coming off as needy or desperate, but as being a pushover. It is a fine line, but I think one can easily be "nice" insofar as one can be attentive and accommodating without coming off as spineless and weak.
Currently, though, the above has gotten me a big dose of ambiguity. I had been dating this lady earlier in the year, but she decided she only wanted to be friends (and informed me via text message, which I thought was weak). Not wanting to be a douchebag to her, I called her up to talk about it and we have subsequently kept in touch. Recently, we've started having meals again and communicating a bit more. If it weren't for the prior history, these would be dates, but there's enough ambiguity there now that one could read it either way. I have been paying (the gentlemanly thing to do and it's not a lot of money) as I figure it's worth the opportunity cost to go with the flow a bit longer and see where it's leading. If these were just "friendly" things, I find it odd that she would talk with me for 2-3 hours each time and let me kiss her repeatedly, but the cynical interpretation could simply be that she's playing me. I don't have her pegged as that sort of person, so we'll see. Contrasts and contradictions.
Ugh, relationships can be complicated. Ultimately, that's all I have to add to this thread, I guess.
Interesthing thread
Inspired by what others have written here, I decided to write a bit about my own history with women, briefly so u wont get bored.
I have myself never been very successful with women. I guess ive been always bit different than others. As for my apperance goes, I have always been very skinny. This is genetic and not from a eating disorder or from drugs, a thing i was repeatedly asked about
In addition to this i was bullied a lot from school, for years, wich pretty much tore my selfesteem to pieces.
Over the years i tried to apporache women. All i got a was a broken hear, many times over. It seemed that my feelings where always one side AKA the women felt nothing back. I had and still have many female friends but was neve able to get forward in my love life.
Well, when I was 18 I was pretty sure i would never get laid or kissed. I diont drink booze and I hate going to bars, so meeting women was not easy.
My selfesteem improved slowly but firmly. I went to study for some years and there asked this lady out for a coffee and to my huge suprise, she said YES! I was sooo exited and we had good time eating ice-cream and talking. I though it would finally be want i had so long wanted..but it ended in about two weeks and i didint even get a kiss. I think she wanted just be friends.
When I was around 22 I had computer of my own and i decided to write an add to an pen pal site, to get some new friends. I did write to the add that "Women only, please".
I got tons of pen pals, all very nice from different countries. I started writing with this girl from Spain and after a while i noticed that i have an crush an her and she didint seem to mind. After few months she game to Finland and we started dating. Boy, i was on top of the World
Well, that lasted three years and she left me, I was devastated. I recovered slowly and in the mist of my lonelyness i singned up to this dating site that i found to be very good and in few months I started writing to this beautiful and intelligent lady from Czech and we have been togheter now for over two wonderful years..and i have learned to love myself.
My point is: There is lot of fish on the ocean. I didint manage well with the ladies from my own country but i have dated two beautiful, smart and sexy woman.
I recommend if one wants to have a gf or bf is to do something about it. Internet is a good place to hook up with people, even beyond borders. There are some good dating sites out there.
Dont hate yourself. I know that being unwanted hurts but selfpity doesnt hepl at all. Be yourself and keep trying
And sorry for the long post all...
JRS, great post! Wonderful advice, underlined at the end with the thumbs-up!
Don't be sorry for a long post...(1) they're generally worth the time investment, and (2) it would be hypocritical of me to criticise a long post!
Now that is the evil kinda of "nice guy". More like "Janus guy" actually. I'd never be able to do something like that, my indegestion wouldn't settle for years.
Exactly. Privately it may bother you (and that's fine), but you shouldn't moan about it in public as it's just a turn-off. I prefer just being sarcastic.
Kidding aside, the whole "nice" dilemma is a loaded issue. I don't consider myself a particularly nice person, but when a lady catches my fancy, I find myself actually wanting to be nice. The difficulty, then, is not so much coming off as needy or desperate, but as being a pushover. It is a fine line, but I think one can easily be "nice" insofar as one can be attentive and accommodating without coming off as spineless and weak.
Currently, though, the above has gotten me a big dose of ambiguity. I had been dating this lady earlier in the year, but she decided she only wanted to be friends (and informed me via text message, which I thought was weak). Not wanting to be a douchebag to her, I called her up to talk about it and we have subsequently kept in touch. Recently, we've started having meals again and communicating a bit more. If it weren't for the prior history, these would be dates, but there's enough ambiguity there now that one could read it either way. I have been paying (the gentlemanly thing to do and it's not a lot of money) as I figure it's worth the opportunity cost to go with the flow a bit longer and see where it's leading. If these were just "friendly" things, I find it odd that she would talk with me for 2-3 hours each time and let me kiss her repeatedly, but the cynical interpretation could simply be that she's playing me. I don't have her pegged as that sort of person, so we'll see. Contrasts and contradictions.
Ugh, relationships can be complicated. Ultimately, that's all I have to add to this thread, I guess.
TimM, it is good that you find yourself "wanting to be nice". It shows you were raised decently with a healthy respect for women, and don't look down on them as second-class citizens or as mere receptacles for your lusts, afterwards to be discarded or shelved until next time, which the latter, I'm afraid, I see all too often among my brethren.
Most of which, I have noticed, are single and frequently complain very negatively about women, using many crude terms...so you're on the right track, pal.
Regarding your interpretation of your current dating situation as described, I don't believe it's necessarily cynical to think of it that way, but probably realistic in this specific case. You're trying to do the right thing, come across as attentive and accomodating without appearing spineless and weak (which is quite the narrow tightrope for men to walk, ladies...), but look at it from her perspective...she gets to have someone to listen to her for a few hours, dinner/drinks paid for without any further expectations, and gets to kiss you knowing you will go with the flow and not press the issue, then in the immortal words of George Costanza, she has "hand".
For her, it is a win-win situation, and if she knows you will allow the relationship to remain status-quo indefinitely, well, that's all you're gonna get, my friend. If you are content with that, that's your business, but you seem dissatisfied with it.
A precursor to how this situation developed should have been when she gave you the "I just want to be friends" speech via text message. Text message? That's rather impersonal, and impolite. But because (I can only presume) you felt hurt and wanted a further explanation, which is only sensible, and you did after all wish to remain friends and not lose that time and emotional investment in the relationship thus far, you called her rather than texting her back (thereby giving her said "hand"), and probably rather quickly instead of waiting a bit (thereby giving the situation a whiff of desperation, and her even more "hand") and allowing yourself to get set up for the ambiguity. Especially if there are freebies (dinner, someone to listen to her pour out her troubles, etc.) in it for her. And for her, she is content to leave the relationship right where it is, knowing you are accessible, kind of like a "dick under glass, break in case of emergency" thing, which it would appear she has yet to do. But she knows you are there for her, at her disposal.
Want to try and change that?
(1) Don't be as accessible. By which I mean when she calls or texts to arrange a meeting for dinner, talking, et cetera, be "busy". Or, better yet, be "on a date" with someone. And don't respond immediately, or even that day. If she knows you're not as easily accessible, or even better, that someone else may be enjoying that access and the fringe benefits that seem to accompany it, then one of two things will happen...she will step up her efforts to give you some romantic attention, at which point you will then have some "hand" of your own and can start to affect the decision on how far the relationship will go, OR...her calls and texts will begin to taper off as she focuses her attentions on more fruitful endeavours.
Whichever way it goes, at least you'll know where you stand in her mind, and that's what you want to know, right?
Regardless, the status quo that she has been used to will change, and she'll have to expend some thought into what she's going to do, which will mean she will be thinking more about you, one way or the other. She'll either realize she had a good thing going but it needs to a little more equitable and worthwhile for you, or she'll go freeload off of someone else, in which case you'll be better off not expending time and emotional effort on her and can pursue other options yourself.
(2) Insist that she pay her own way, or at least don't offer her dinner and/or drinks. Or meet her somewhere that costs nothing, like a park. If there's no eating or drinking gratis when you do take the time to meet with her, it can also be a good way to determine if it's your company she enjoys, or the other things; the result of that determination can only educate you on her intentions. You need not be a dick about it; you can diplomatically explain that you'd like to get together (or that you're stepping out to a specific place on your own for dinner and she's welcome to meet you there, if she wants, but you'd better actually be there) but times are tight, and if she has any knowledge of the current world situation whatsoever she should understand that the crappy economy means everyone is looking to cut back a little here and there. If she balks at that, a little reminder that you've picked the tab the last several times you ate together might be in order, and pay attention to her reaction.
Even if you were boyfriend/girlfriend, having her offer from time to time to buy you drinks and/or dinner, or even cook dinner for the both of you, would only be reasonable. If she's flat-broke, offer to purchase the ingredients for a recipe of her choice and bring them over, splurge for a nice dessert, and offer to do the dishes and clean-up afterwards. Everyone's gotta eat, right? That would give her an opportunity to reciprocate for your generosity thus far, while still keeping the romantic portion out of it; just two friends having dinner. Ladies, am I out of line?
I should probably add the caveat that you should never expect a woman to willing cook for you. I did not marry my wife for her culinary skills. She's good when she does cook, but not a lot of variety (that's OK, I am a simple man with simple pleasures), and we eat out quite a bit, thus resulting in my rather substantial girth. I'm not quite Jabba The Hutt, but I am on my way.
Anyway, if a woman offers to cook for you, that's probably a pretty good sign that she's romantically interested in you and wants to strut her plummage, so to speak; if you ask her nicely to cook for you so that the two of you can enjoy a private meal, and offer to pick up whatever materials SHE decides she wants to cook, as well as promise to do dishes and clean-up and dessert, and after all that preliminary work she still scoffs at that, then that's not a good sign. That means she was probably more interested in the restaurant than your company.
(3) Even when you are accessible...cancel on her from time to time. Life happens, stuff comes up. Not that her friendship's not important you, let her know you appreciate her friendship and her desire to get together with you, for after all it's just friendship she's interested in (right?), but something came up with work, or an old friend just came in from out-of-town, or you suddenly remembered a prior commitment, what-have-you.
It happens all the time in real-life, and a true friend understands that. Someone who is not interested in your friendship will "Harummmphh!" and act all pissy with you. Don't say you'll be there and then just blow it off with no phone call or text message; that's just dick. But be apologetic but firm (or she may whine you into making her a priority, thus playing into her hands and once you set a precedent for cancelling YOUR plans for hers, you're toast...and making it more likely your ruse to cancel in the first place will be revealed, thus getting you into deeper trouble), and tell her you will try to get with her another time.
And then...wait for HER to contact YOU. Maybe she'll offer to buy you dinner. Or make you dinner.
(4) Spread yourself around a little more. Don't make her your sole dating focus. Diversify your emotional investments. If you well and truly enjoy being her friend, only focus on the friend aspect and not kissing her, unless it's a friendly peck on the cheek goodbye until next time. Or if she goes in for the kiss, turn your head towards her shoulder and hug her instead ("Denied!"). And if she's only interested in being friends, after all, mention a female friend of hers that you find attractive and inquire about the possibility of her helping set you up with said friend. If she's really a friend to you, nothing more but certainly nothing less, she'll help hook you up for a first date (or give you sound reasons why not, like the friend is the Typhoid Mary of chlamydia or something) or otherwise give you a strong referral...my female friends did, back in The Day, assisting me when necessary, and life was swell. Depending on where you live, perhaps you can find some nearby female Trek BBSers who can likewise assist.
Or maybe even a lady Trek BBSer themself
, which would kill multiple birds with one stone, it seems.If she suddenly finds herself with real actual competition, then she may take the lead in changing the dynamic. After all, wouldn't you be proud to introduce a new girlfriend to a respected ladyfriend?
And, finally, (5) tell it like it is. Are you genuinely interested in being her friend? Do you genuinely find those long conversations interesting? Does she allow give-and-take and equal time in the conversation, or is always about her? Does she blather on about her lovelife? Are you just putting up with the time investment with her, hoping it one day pans out into something more substantial than kissing? Don't you have more useful things to do with your time than listen to an endless litany of her problems?
A true friend will listen to problems...but will also tell the person if they're all wet, or suggest options or solutions. And if they disregard your advice, then you just tell them to deal with it. After all, isn't that the way it works with your male friends? I am remind of a line from "Airplane", when the old white lady was trying to help the ill black guy and he brushed her off; "Chump don't want the help? Chump don't get no help." I'm not trying to be mean or heartless or unsympathetic, but that's the real deal. In my line of work, I am frequently cooped up in the locomotive cab with a conductor and on occasion an additional brakeman or student engineer or student conductor for 8, 10, 12 hours at a stretch. And having done this for several years now, I have gotten to know most of my coworkers pretty well; the cab conversations run the whole gamut from the mundane to the life-changing, with responses from "You don't say." to "Dude, that's fucked up! Here's the phone number of a good attorney!". I've heard just about everything and received/dispensed advice on as widely varied topics as who's going to the Super Bowl this year to which manager's an asshole better avoided to how to deal with teen angst and school truancy to how to circumvent the CSI guys in disposing of an unfaithful spouse's corpse. As a friend, it's your responsibility to hold up the mirror...if they don't like what's reflected, it is up to them to change it themselves.
Ladies reading this, this may be hardest thing for you to accept when dealing with men. I am not trying to stereotype here, but from my own personal experiences and years of observation of my own female friends and Mrs. SicOne's ladyfriends, women seem to only want us to listen. Not offer suggestions or solutions. Just listen. Oh, and agree with them. That's important.
If you have a gay friend who listens and gossips and doesn't also offer advice and/or solutions, then you're getting a skewed and misleading perspective on how male conversation really goes.
But men are genetically set up to be problem-solvers. We listen, we advise, we solve the problem; or try to, anyway. Just like I'm trying to do with this whole dating thread. And I fervently hope any advice I've given out thus far helps...not necessarily only that you "score", but that it helps you deal with the fairer sex on a more equal level, that it helps you to foster better relationships with them, and ladies, that it helps you to see the male perspective as something other than just trying to get you in the sack. I am still hoping to see more female involvement in this thread to counterbalance the guy advice being liberally distributed here, and by all means, tell me if I'm wrong or misled. Criticism, constructive or otherwise, doesn't bother me.
I know, I know...you believe all of these mind games are distasteful and patently unnecessary. I feel the same way. Most guys do. Mrs. SicOne is blessedly uncomplicated and low-maintenance (most of the time
) and beautiful, inside and out, and I find it nothing short of miraculous that she loves not-so-little-old-me (not that I'm not lubbable, folks...but, hey, for all I know I'll come home from my next trip to find all of my Star Trek stuff chain-sawed in half, in a merry bonfire on the front lawn). But until you meet someone like that, while you're dealing with the lady you have described with all of the situations involved, all of the above is my own personal take on how to handle that to bring about change, whether that change is for the better or for the worse, and you, all of you reading, take that advice for what it's worth.
Folks, I am finding this equally informative and educational. As an old married fart, I have to live vicarously through you guys, so let's keep it going.
Back in my younger days, I was guilty of doing something like that a few times, taking advantage of the vulnerability. Lemme set it up for you...
I worked in a place where the work force was 75% female. Of the 25% that were male, half of them were married. Of the 12.5% that were male and single, half were gay. Of the 6.25% that were male and single and hetero, half of them were physically unsuitable to the fairer sex. Of the 3.125% of us that were male, single, hetero, and happenin' (not to blatantly toot my own horn, and you wouldn't think it to look at me now, but two decades ago ol' SicOne was suave and debonair, with longer black hair and no grey, and a "pornstache" mustache...) made out like friggin' bandits in the arena of love. I know it sounds sexist, but yes, it was.
While I had many female friends, I had also cultivated a, ahem, certain reputation in the workplace. So when women sought out my company, they knew what they might be getting into back then. It happened a few times, but once in particular a young lady named Kim, a few years older than me, went out for drinks with me after work, one-on-one. We spoke of many things and it was on the whole a conversationally equal give-and-take, getting-to-know-you chit-chat, but she spoke of her boyfriend and how though he didn't quite treat her as well as she would have liked, she still loved him and hoped he would one day pop the question. I asked her later if she wanted to go back to my place, she gave me the "What for?" and a smile, and I gave her the "You know what for." and a smile (that probably came out like a predatory shark's grin back then...)(cue the 70's porn music), and she said "What about my boyfriend?". I said "He's not invited." She appeared shocked at first, and I told her something to the effect of "Your boyfriend's an asshole. He doesn't treat you well and you're just hoping you can make him change. If he hasn't changed with your tender attention, he's probably not willing or likely to change. And if you were really that into him, you wouldn't be having drinks with me, with my reputation at work." We left hand-in-hand.
What followed that evening, and a few more times, was glorious. She later broke up with the boyfriend and moved out on her own a few weeks later, and ultimately got married to someone else within a year. I hope it was someone who treated her with respect and decency and dignity.
To be honest.. that's one of the coolest and most amusing thing i've heard in a while
You were straight to the point and didn't leave much to the imagination.. many women i've met and heard about complain how they were tricked into having sex and regretted it later at which point i always ask myself how intelligent that woman is.
You were upfront, gave one of the best advice ever and were "rewarded".. simple as that. People sometimes get shocked by the directness of some but sometimes it really is only about the good times and nobody has to feel guilty if both parties know what they're getting into.
My experience is this.. looks decide who get together, characters decides who stays together.
If all you want is sex than you better visit the gym and maybe get your backhair waxed off but if you want a real relationship that is only the start.
Sometimes having the best character out there isn't enough.. if the woman likes to be with you but can't imagine ripping your clothes off after you get home then you've got no chance at a relationship. That's why some guys have so many female friends of which most or all don"t want to get horizontal with him.
If you can muster up average looks having a winning personality with humor and self confidence can get you almost any woman you set your sight on apart from those really arrogant types who only want to date models but then you can forget about those because their look will fade and then they have nothing.
Since much of this seems specifically directed at me, let me clarify. Nope, I didn't call her right back. I ignored her text message for a day or so until she sent me another one and then briefly replied. I waited another week before giving her a call. You're right; contacting right away would come off as desperate (and increase the possibility of saying something rash). When we spoke, I did call her out on the impersonal nature of the text message, and she was genuinely apologetic.
This whole second phase started, in fact, after I subsequently dropped contact for a couple of weeks, and she then suggested the idea of dinner to me. There has been an increase in personal contact since then, which seems like a positive sign. It's also possible that it's an elaborate ruse to string me along, but I don't think she's that type. There have been times in the past when I thought she was giving excuses for being unavailable on a particular day and the like, but they have subsequently turned out to be legitimate. So, she comes off as fairly genuine and straightforward, so she's earned more latitude from me.
As for this, when I make a commitment to anyone, I generally keep it. I have my life in enough order that I make a point of not flaking out on people (and dislike it when people are flaky to me). So, engaging in this ruse is not something I'd be inclined to do.
No.Or maybe even a lady Trek BBSer themself
Conversation is balanced and wide-ranging.
Speaking generally again, the key issue, I think, is balancing aloofness with attention. Women (and men) like attention, so there is something to be said for the whole "pursuit" game. Be a little too attentive, though, and it comes off as needy--or worse yet, creepy.
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Thanks, FPAlpha, for the kind words. I just put my mojo out there, and she picked up on it. But there were a hundred times it didn't work, for every time it did.
And I did my best to make sure she was "rewarded" as well. When dipping one's pen in the company inkwell, so to speak, extra-special effort must be made to insure an "Excellent" on the inevitable water-cooler post-coital review. Like in the publishing industry, you're only as good as your last performance.
You're mostly correct about no one has to feel guilty if both parties know what they're getting into...there were a few times I had to be a little bit of a dick when afterwards I wanted to move on but they kept coming around and hounding me, wanting something more significant than a mere evening's pleasure, and while I tried to be up front and not lead them into a false sense of where the relationship stood, I still felt bad and guilty, especially having young daughters; wouldn't want anyone treating the Princesses like that.
And I did have one stalker, who scared the crap out of me (and was a cock-blocker at that). Not "Fatal Attraction"-bad, but a tad unnerving.
Regarding backhair-waxing, I am glad I got hitched before that became a big issue. The missus doesn't mind that much, so if she doesn't mind, I don't have to mess with it, which is a relief. Problem now is, at 42 I'm beginning to get the Thufir-Hawat-from-"Dune" eyebrow thing going on now, where weird long hairs sprout overnight (probably "overshare", but that's the way I roll...).
Yep, the personality and self-confidence are the keys. Thanks for the input, my friend.
25 here, almost 26. Same situation. High five!
I'm not sure why this would be a problem as the rail thin guy look is in now. I'm 5'10 and have a 32-inch waist and am continually shocked when I can no longer fit into 32-inch jeans because the legs and butt are far too tight. Now I know how women feel shopping for clothes!IAs for my apperance goes, I have always been very skinny. This is genetic and not from a eating disorder or from drugs, a thing i was repeatedly asked about
Besides, you can't be much thinner than this guy, and he's a sex symbol!
This was a great post but I have trouble with this #2 section.
A pattern is established where Tim is paying, so suddenly saying for her to pay is very blunt no matter how it is phrased. Also, there's no polite way to ask anyone to cook for you, unless you are paying them.
I would suggest instead to offer to cook a meal yourself, and even better, ask her to cook with you. This is a more companionly thing to do, whether she is after a free meal or not, it is much more pleasant company to do it together. It gives you a chance to work side by side, one chops, one stirs, and chat all the while. You would be at your place, not a restaurant, which does not mean you should make a move, you should let her. But if she casually brushes your arm or fingers while you work side by side, take her lead and do the same...
Here's a perfect example. I've been getting to know this girl and I got her number today and we both said we'd like to get together soon. I told her I'd call this weekend.
I WON'T be calling Saturday morning. I'll be waiting to Sunday afternoon so I won't seem desperate. Silly? Yes, but that's how the game is played at the moment.
Edit: On the paying issue. I've always felt that men paying was insanely stupid but you gotta play along at first. However, if she consistently never pays then that's a sign she's probably very rude and it's time to find someone else.
I WON'T be calling Saturday morning. I'll be waiting to Sunday afternoon so I won't seem desperate. Silly? Yes, but that's how the game is played at the moment.
Edit: On the paying issue. I've always felt that men paying was insanely stupid but you gotta play along at first. However, if she consistently never pays then that's a sign she's probably very rude and it's time to find someone else.
Perhaps stupid and certainly old-fashioned, but not necessarily rude on the woman's part. Many women expect the man to pay, and that's just the way it is. In my case, she's mentioned that she's short on cash these days, and since we're not talking huge sums of money, I don't mind ponying up. Yes, these could be carefully-placed "hints" to aid in scoring free stuff, but I don't get that vibe.
Interestingly, I've just noticed that the few times that I've recently gotten her on the phone is when I inadvertently haven't set my phone to send my caller ID info. Otherwise, I've tended to get voice-mail, though she responds to text messages very quickly. Perhaps to prevent future screening I should just leave the caller ID broadcast off and thus be more mysterious.
She seemed a little iffy about this weekend when we last spoke, so I'll leave the ball in her court (no further contact on my part through the end of the weekend) and see what she does.Hmm...the "good" and "bad" signs tend to cancel each other out, so ultimately more data are needed.
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Nothing is just the way it is, though. If she's thoughtful, she'll realize you're not made of money. Obviously, if one person is very well off then that changes things.
First date should be coffee or lunch or otherwise casual and in most cases you should go dutch to keep the pressure off both of you. Generally I make sure that by the third date at least one meal/movie/whatever has been on her. The best way to do this in my opinion is to say something like "You want to take this and Ill get the movie later?" when the check comes, or at least pause a few seconds when it comes so she has the opportunity to step in and offer. Girls do have to spend more money in general on their appearance and other such factorsm, so it makes sense for the guy to pay more often than not, but if she isn't willing to throw in once in a while then it is a sign that she maybe isn't that into you.
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