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Cristopher Lloyd ruined the Klingons!

Starship Polaris said:
Christopher Lloyd is great, and he was great as Kruge.

Writers killed the Klingons.

Well that's essentially what I was saying. Lloyd as Kruge was fine as a wacky black-hat villian.

But As the blueprint for Klingon society? Hell no! The writers apparently used him as a model Klingon. He was a rouge, an extremist! He should not have been used as a model for Klingon culture.
 
It was TMP that first decided Klingons were burly, bump heads brutes who shot first and asked questions never, and didn't like bright interior lighting on their ships?

Lloyd's character was a highlight of STIII. Not a lot of time to develop a new villain in a Trek film, so it's important to establish distinct character as quickly as they can. Offing his woman seems harsh, but she probably was told NOT to look at the Genesis data.

"Say the wrong thing, Torg!"

Kruge had some of the best lines.

I had no problem with the casting. I was around 8 when I saw ST3 and never really watched Taxi, I had no preconceived idea of Christopher Lloyd.
 
Therin of Andor said:

He was better known as Jim from "Taxi" before his ST III role. Then came Doc Brown.

Christopher Lloyd and John Larroquette (Maltz) were big, BIG television stars on two of TV's most popular shows at the time..."Taxi" and "Night Court". Add James B. Sikking (Styles) into the mix (from TV's popular "Hill Street Blues") and you can see that Paramount pulled off quite a casting coup.

I find Lloyd's portrayal of Kruge to be delightfully over-the-top...not as much as Ricardo Montalban but fun to watch nevertheless. In the opening scene when he blows up the ship with his lover on it, we learn right away what this guy's all about. The final fistfight with Kirk and Kruge is reminiscent of Kirk's fight with Gary Mitchell (sans the psionic powers).

Christopher Lloyd didn't ruin the Klingons. The writers on ST:TNG did. ST:DS9 then ran with that ball.
 
Anwar said:
We usually only see the warriors in TNG, we know from ENT that there were scientist Klingons, Lawyer Klingons, etc.

But if it's any help a (apparently) canon Klingon book says that after they drove the Hurq from their homeworld they got their hands on leftover Hurq tech and reverse-engineered it.

The Hurq' were mentioned in the DS9 episode "The Sword of Kahless"
 
Here's an interesting take on the disintigration of the Klingons, from the (in)famous Michael Wong. I emphasized a few bits myself though:

------------

Klingon Vikings

In the original series, the Klingons were an aggressive military superpower with expansionist ambitions. In the Cold War politics of the time, they obviously represented the USSR, while the Romulans just as obviously represented Red China. They appeared little different from us; they could be violent, aggressive, sly, cloying, or deceptive, just like us. But at the end of "Errand of Mercy", Kor reflected wistfully upon the grand battle that never was: "it would have been glorious!" Oh, from such humble beginnings did such a vast mythology grow...

For some 20 years, it was widely understood that the Klingons were symbolically Russian communists, and throughout even the TOS movies, this theme remained clear. Kor's single line of dialogue did not figure too prominently in the fans' assessment of Klingon culture. But the TNG writers got it in their heads that Cold War politics were no longer appropriate in the politically correct 1990s, so they decided to rewrite the Klingons. What did they base the rewrite on? Kor's single line of dialogue. Kor mentioned his wistful desire for a "glorious" battle royale, and the ancient Vikings believed that death in battle was "glorious". That's enough of a connection for a brain bug; the writers decided that the Klingons had a similar history to our own, and that there were ancient Vikings in their past too. Naturally, the fans went along for the ride.

Time for this brain bug to start growing. In "Heart of Glory", Worf ran into Korris, a Klingon social reactionary who wanted to return to the bygone era of ancient warrior values. No big deal, right? This brain bug has grown as far as it's going to grow, right?

Wrong. Nobody seemed to notice that Korris was a dinosaur even among his own people. They noticed only that this was a cool new aspect of Klingon culture, so the writers grabbed this assumption and ran with it. They proceeded to construct an entire society around the notion that the Klingons were futuristic Vikings. The Viking contempt for a "straw death" became the Klingon contempt for a straw death (peaceful death away from battle). The Viking glorification of death in battle became the Klingon glorification of death in battle. The Viking raider ships became the Klingon Birds of Prey (which rapidly became the Klingons' principal combat vessel). Valhalla, the great hall of Viking warriors in the afterlife, became Stovokor, the great hall of Klingon warriors in the afterlife. The great feasts in Valhalla became the great feasts of Stovokor. They somewhat liberalized Klingon government (in which the Chancellor's daughter took control of the Empire in ST6) reverted to the Vikings' strict patriarchal society in which women were treated as chattel and not permitted to hold rank or power (the only two that tried were the Duras sisters, who were naturally portrayed as evil). The Vikings' patriarchal religion, with its patriarchal pantheon, became the Klingons' patriarchal religion (albeit mutated to conform to Judeo-Christian values, so it centred on a lone male prophet). The militarization of their society became so exaggerated that their battle armour became everyday clothes; while Klingon dignitaries wore leather in ST6, Klingon politicians wear full military body armour even in the highest offices of their own government in TNG.

The writers even resurrected the Vikings' primitive melee weapons, arming Klingons with large, gleaming bladed weapons that became more and more prominent in their fighting style until they seemed to constitute the Klingons' primary combat weapon by the time of DS9. Even the animism associated with some of the ancient Nordic pagan rituals returned. The Klingons were transformed from civilized people into animalistic predators who ate raw meat, growled ferally during lovemaking or when threatened, and treated the act of hunting not as a method of gathering food or as a sport, but as an eroticized ritual. Their appearance, altered for the TOS movies in order to make them look more alien, was altered again, in order to further this sub-human characterization. Look carefully at the teeth of Klingons in the TOS movies ST3 and ST6; they look just like human teeth, don't they? But in TNG, they began to look more and more like the teeth of wolves: sharp, jagged, and pointed every which way. From one scene in ST6 where a Klingon eats something with his hands (something which is entirely appropriate today with certain types of foods, and which can be easily chalked up to cultural awkwardness), the writers decided that Klingons are feral eaters too, and TNG-era Klingons eat the way my dog would, if only he had opposable thumbs.

What started as an enemy superpower with a mysterious but familiar alien culture became a farcical one-note alien society concocted around comic-book interpretations of ancient Norsemen and a not-so-subtle, rather disturbing white supremacist theme of subhuman, dark-skinned uncivilized savages. Before too long, it became a caricature of itself: Worf's pathetic obsession with the most garish aspects of Klingon history became the entirety of Klingon culture. It got so bad that we eventually saw the leadership of the entire Klingon Empire decided by a knife fight! I personally nominate this particular brain bug as a strong competitor for the Jeffries tubes' position as the most powerful brain bug in Star Trek.

-------------

From his page on Star Trek "brain bugs".
 
The notion of the Klingons-as-commies was some after-the-fact rationalization itself.

They were a one-off creation of Gene Coon's, intended to serve the plot of "Errand Of Mercy" and nothing more than futuristic Nazis.

Later writers shoved them into the role of the Russians, notably in the so-so episodes "Friday's Child" and "A Private Little War." TOS' take on Klingons-as-Commies was not one whit better thought out or more sophisticated than the later Klingons-as-Vikings.
 
TNG didn't invent the idea that Klingons had a martial culture. Both The Final Reflection and the Klingon supplement for the FASA RPG predate TNG by a few years.


Marian
 
^^^And heavily influenced the tone--but not the content--of Ron Moore's work on TNG. He said so himself somewhere or other.

blockaderunner said:
Kruge was just ONE Klingon. But when it came time for the Klingons to be expanded in TNG, TPTB pretty much used to Kruge model to paint a broad stroke across the whole race. During TOS, they were cinning and duplicitous, while the Romulans were agressive and militaristic, minus the spewing of the honor garbage (as evidenced in Balance Of Terror). But it seemed that their roles reversed in TNG. I think it would have been more interesting to have had the Klingons like they were in TOS on TNG. Imagine how slightly paranoid the human and non-human crew would have been with smiling-yet-capable-of-letting-the-other-shoe-drop type of Worf as opposed to the "HULK SMASH" Worf.

Oh. Like Garak.

We didn't see TOS style Klingons again until DS9's Cardassians, as far as I'm concerned. And they turned out to be much more varied and dimensional than NuKlingons ever were. Which brings us to:

Anwar said:

Then they decided to take the general idea of the TOS Klingons and make a new race with it in the form of the Cardassians.

Now, if the TOS Klingons had been written as well as the Cardies had, then we'd have a species that didn't need to be altered, but as it stands the change wasn't a bad one.

But they were written as well--easily. And the change was damn near catastrophic. Kor and Kang are as well-drawn in their single outings each as any recurring Trek villain since then. The rest is details. When you add the wild-card of the grinning and somewaht effete Koloth, you have a race that didn't need an over-haul. Indeed, your post shows how remarkably dense TPTB were when creating Worf (the true source of Klingon ruination): an intelligent, wily character wasn't acceptable but a sub-rational brute given to berserker rages somehow was? Not in any way, shape or form the fault of TOS...

To answer the OP: I don't blame Kruge entirely for this, however. Taken along with Kor and Kang, I thought we got a pretty good cross-section of Klingon types.

In other words:

Starship Polaris said:
Christopher Lloyd is great, and he was great as Kruge.

Writers killed the Klingons.

:thumbsup:
 
Well, while Kruge is an influence -- and since he was a memorable villain it'd be hard for him not to influence future villainry -- I think the real connection is the two (again rogue) Klingons from ``Heart of Glory''. After providing The Next Generation with its only moments of excitement the first season, they were naturally copied for later Klingon Kulture episodes as having interesting dramatic potential, with the point that they were supposed to be the Zeeba-Killer Croc Neighbors of the real Klingons lost in the shuffle.
 
Kruge was a great Klingon in the best tradition of TOS Klingons. Treacherous, not to be trusted, and quite capable of killing and enjoying every minute of it. Kruge was a wonderfully sleazy Klingon. Wll dome Christopher Lloyd!
 
roger1999 said:
TNG Klingons have inspired a huge fan following, and even the creation of a genuine Klingon language.
:wtf: I can't believe Therin missed this one!

The rudiments of the language were hashed out by James Doohan and Mark Okrand prior to TMP (1979-ish, perhaps as early as '78). And the first printing of The Klingon Dictionary was in 1985...two years before the premiere of TNG. :)

(Oh, and since III is my favorite Trek movie - seriously - I loved Lloyd's Kruge as well as Larroquette's Maltz. Now that Larroquette's playing an asshole on Boston Legal, I can't wait for some reference like Denny Crane yelling at him "I told you I'd kill you later 25 years ago. It's later." :D)
 
jayrath said:
Nope. It was the endless TNG backstory/soap opera of Klingons that ruined the race. As a result, we all know far more about Klingon peerage and accession than we know of British royalty.

Honor this and k-blah and k-stuff that. Attention paid to the subtle details of Klingon culture would have been far better spent examining human behavior. Let the Klingons get their own TV show; "Star Trek" is for earth.

Well said! One of the best post on here.

May I add that this soap opera wave has replaced real dramatic story telling ala TOS with stuff like nuBSG and like you said endless bs about klingon inner workings
 
BTW, the first thing in "Broken Bow" that killed ENT for me was the Klingon. I wrote the entire series off immediately. Yes, I continued to watch until about mid-season 2, but nothing they did even remotely convinced me they were in ANY way doing a "serious" prequel to TOS.

Until Manny Coto came along in S4...which brought me back and gave me POSITIVE opinions of maybe 8 or 10 S4 episodes (especially the IAMD 2-parter). Berman and Braga were MARRIED to the TNG Klingons. Coto was not.
 
Anwar said:
They were ordered to include Klingons by UPN.

Yeesh, did they have any control at all or were they just useless puppets? Because including the Klingons was a really lame idea. Clang (Or however the klingon spelling went. K'k'kklang?) Could have been an Andorian. Or anything other than another Klingon with an amusing name.
 
Berman and Braga originally were going to set the show in 2111 (or some time around there), have the show be Earthbound for the first season to show us just the recovering Earth was like, have the ship be launched at the end of S1, have no transporters, phase-whatevers, photon-whatevers, no Klingons, no shields, and try to stay away from disturbing what Kirk did.

UPN then said that if it was a Trek show it had to have phasers, photon torpedos, transporters, shields, Klingons, etc and ordered them to put it all in (since UPN were in charge).
 
Well, UPN was always asinine. They didn't pull that with the VGR pilot though. Though they essentially had klingons in it in the form of the Kazon. So ENT would seem to be the only show that was heavily dictated from above with little producer control, eh? Lovely.

But anyways...
 
Well, with VOY they told them to make the Fleet and Maquis crew get along just fine, so I think having them all wearing uniforms together at the end was their interference.

They also said no arcs, no continuing/lasting damage, and then when that didn't work they told them to do Borg stories since the Borg were popular but VOY would always have to win by the end.

Also they told them to include a Sexy Character to increase ratings and hijacked an idea Braga had for a Borg character and made 7 of 9.

Then they said "ratings are still slipping, use TNG crossover chars" and gave us Troi and Barclay.

However, stuff like Janeway always being right over everything was the VOY Staff's fault, mainly because Janeway was Jeri Taylor's Mary Sue character.
 
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