In Rocks and Shoals we're expected to accept that a Dominion ship just happened to crash on the planet two days before our heroes got stuck there. To make matters worse they crashed on the same planet...within a mile or two. Possible...but quite the coincidence. Anyone have thoughts on why the writers didn't just have one of the pursuing ships follow into the nebula and crash? Same result with less reliance on coincidence.
Crashed Dominion ship in Rocks and Shoals
- Thread starter erastus25
- Start date
Even in the scenario you are proposing, two ships would still crash hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart. Only the magic of Hollywood would bring them together.
...It might just be that there are so many Dominion ships swarming the neighborhood that this particular planet had two hundred and sixty-two of them wrecked on the surface at the time, one sufficiently close for drama.
Or then wounded Jem'Hadar vessels seek the protection of each other, by automated means beyond our heroes' control or understanding.
Timo Saloniemi
Or then wounded Jem'Hadar vessels seek the protection of each other, by automated means beyond our heroes' control or understanding.
Timo Saloniemi
For the same reason in Stargate, everybody on the planet lives within five miles of the Stargate.
That's, of course, completely true. I guess my thought was that they could have easily brought the absurdity level down a bit by having the crashed ship be one that was chasing them. Still an insane coincidence, but perhaps not so glaring that everyone watching goes "hey..wait a minute!"
I agree that this the situation is implausible but far from impossible.
The initial reason for landing on the planet is because it is hidden within a dark matter nebula. Whilst helpful for hiding from the Dominion sensors it also wreaks havoc with the Starfleet crews Jem’Hadar fighter systems. Since the planet they crash landed on was the only Class M planet in sensor range we can assume that the nebula has only one survivable planet, at least for humans. Furthermore the Dominion were likely scouting the dark matter nebula for the same reason Captain Sisco chose it to hide in; sensors can’t detect enemy ships and therefore the Dominion would be blind to enemy ships using the nebula for cover.
As far as landing within walking distance of a coincidentally downed Jem’Hadar fighter goes, I’d chalk that up to writer’s necessity. Obviously the episode wouldn’t be very entertaining if they scanned and found a down Jem’Hadar fighter thousands of kilometres away and of no threat the episode would have ended pretty abruptly. Regarding the concept of a Jem’Hadar ship simply chasing them into a nebula, equally implausible. A fully operational Jem’Hadar fighter would catch Sisco’s damaged ship in seconds…
The initial reason for landing on the planet is because it is hidden within a dark matter nebula. Whilst helpful for hiding from the Dominion sensors it also wreaks havoc with the Starfleet crews Jem’Hadar fighter systems. Since the planet they crash landed on was the only Class M planet in sensor range we can assume that the nebula has only one survivable planet, at least for humans. Furthermore the Dominion were likely scouting the dark matter nebula for the same reason Captain Sisco chose it to hide in; sensors can’t detect enemy ships and therefore the Dominion would be blind to enemy ships using the nebula for cover.
As far as landing within walking distance of a coincidentally downed Jem’Hadar fighter goes, I’d chalk that up to writer’s necessity. Obviously the episode wouldn’t be very entertaining if they scanned and found a down Jem’Hadar fighter thousands of kilometres away and of no threat the episode would have ended pretty abruptly. Regarding the concept of a Jem’Hadar ship simply chasing them into a nebula, equally implausible. A fully operational Jem’Hadar fighter would catch Sisco’s damaged ship in seconds…
They should have done an episode of Stargate where they arrived on a planet, used it as a study of some ancient culture, then after they leave the audience finds out that they were in some extraplanetary version of Epcot, the primitives were all actors, and they thought they were improvising in some kind of show.
In almost every science fiction show I've ever seen, every planet that isn't Earth has a surface area of about 10 square miles. SF writers always hand-wave the scope of the places they're in.
In almost every science fiction show I've ever seen, every planet that isn't Earth has a surface area of about 10 square miles. SF writers always hand-wave the scope of the places they're in.
It is interesting that 90% of the planets on Stargate are only settled within a day's walk of the gate. Only a couple are advanced enough to have a worldwide civilization (Kelowna, Tollan, the planet that held the race). I suppose if there were more planets with big civilizations, they'd send teams through the gate in Jeeps (gate's too small for a Hummer).
I just think there were loads of cut scences similar to the following: -
GENERAL HAMMOND: So you next mission will begin at 0900 hours where you will proceed to the only settlement on the planet approximately 20 hours from the gate on foot ....
ONEILL: Sorry General did you say 20 hours on foot, SG3 haven't been offworld in a while why don't we let them take the mission.
GENERAL HAMMOND: Agreed (sigh).
Well, that's a feature, not a bug. None of the cultures are "native" - they have been founded through the stargate. And they are not founded for the purpose of populating the planet, but solely to allow the Goa'uld to exploit the resource on top of which the stargate was installed. The locals would be hard pressed to colonize widely, especially on worlds where the flora and fauna isn't actually completely compatible with the human biology. Kelowna and Tollan would be expected but also expectedly rare exceptions.
Add to this that the transplanted cultures would not have the characteristics associated with their Tauri counterparts: Vikings would have no motivation to go viking from a settlement of plenty, and Mongols would stay put without plains to conquer. Plus the Goa'uld would indoctrinate the slave culturelets to be loyal, local and lacking in ambition.
In contrast, as advanced worlds would know the true significance of the local stargate, and would have a reception center right next to it, there would be very little need for our heroes to explore globally...
Timo Saloniemi
Add to this that the transplanted cultures would not have the characteristics associated with their Tauri counterparts: Vikings would have no motivation to go viking from a settlement of plenty, and Mongols would stay put without plains to conquer. Plus the Goa'uld would indoctrinate the slave culturelets to be loyal, local and lacking in ambition.
In contrast, as advanced worlds would know the true significance of the local stargate, and would have a reception center right next to it, there would be very little need for our heroes to explore globally...
Timo Saloniemi
at the risk of spinning this thread back to its original question ...
It wasn't merely that there were Jem'Hadar on the planet with our heroes, but critical to the storyline that they and their Vorta Kommissar were already on the planet, and under duress with the Vorta injured and ketricel running out.
That allowed the re-enforcement of the Jem'Hadar's blind obedience and dedication in the most extreme circumstances, as well as their dependence on The White and the consequences of withdrawal. Also demonstrated that the Vorta were rather weak, not only physically but also individually could be self-centered, uncaring for the soldiers under their command (in direct contrast to the anguish Sisko feels), and swayed from their devotion to the Founders.
To me, this episode is rife with contrasts ... The Federation crew's desire for self-preservation while fulfilling their duties vs the Jem'Hadar disregard for their own lives ... Sisko's agony over the suffering of the people under his command and unwillingness to endanger them needlessly vs Keevan's total disregard for his Jem'Hadar ... even how respectful of authority and obedient the Jem'Hadar normally are vs how unhinged they could be when they're unmedicated.
It wasn't merely that there were Jem'Hadar on the planet with our heroes, but critical to the storyline that they and their Vorta Kommissar were already on the planet, and under duress with the Vorta injured and ketricel running out.
That allowed the re-enforcement of the Jem'Hadar's blind obedience and dedication in the most extreme circumstances, as well as their dependence on The White and the consequences of withdrawal. Also demonstrated that the Vorta were rather weak, not only physically but also individually could be self-centered, uncaring for the soldiers under their command (in direct contrast to the anguish Sisko feels), and swayed from their devotion to the Founders.
To me, this episode is rife with contrasts ... The Federation crew's desire for self-preservation while fulfilling their duties vs the Jem'Hadar disregard for their own lives ... Sisko's agony over the suffering of the people under his command and unwillingness to endanger them needlessly vs Keevan's total disregard for his Jem'Hadar ... even how respectful of authority and obedient the Jem'Hadar normally are vs how unhinged they could be when they're unmedicated.
And I think the contrasts is what makes this episode very good. It manages to paint the Dominion as completely alien, and tacitly suggest that conflict may be unavoidable, without de-humanizing or essentializing any of the participants.
ISB seemed to want to make the war a long, tough slog, and this episode confirms that there would be no magic bullets that will bring the war to an end: no sleep command to disarm the enemy. Although participants, Sisko and company were mostly observers in a drama that would have played out without them. Keevan likely would have manufactured the self-destruction of the troop without Sisko's presence. It's alien in the sense of showing different values at work, and how difficult it is for two sides to see eye to eye. On the other hand, the episode "humanized" the Jem'hadar: more than any other episode, it tries to describe their motivations in ordinary language. Third Remata'klan displays notions of honor, obedience and insight that though different, are relatable.
Don't be so sure...you can have two idiots who have the only two cars on a parking lot who still find a way to hit each other...it happens.
OTOH, it might very well be that all Dominion ships have automation aboard that either selects the best possible crash site using the same parameters, or then selects a crash site close to previous ones. That the crashes were survivable in the first place suggests they were almost perfectly controlled ones, after all.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
First recorded automobile collision in the US occurred in Pennsylvania, at the time there were only two automobiles in Pennsylvania.
Things I can safely assume:
1. Pennsylvania is not a flat salt plane, and that transportation requires roads that restricts the left and right movement of vehicles.
2. Save some bumpy roads, vehicles seldom leave the road while driving.
3. The cars in questions, early models, did not move faster than 12 mph, so that their paths would not diverge as radically as would spacecraft.
4. At this time, any cars in any state likely came from the same source and were garaged in proximity to one another.
This trope, which usually is described as taking place in Ohio, is impossible to verify.
The people who owned the two cars were actually meeting each other for the first time- cars were rare and unique back then and they had learned of the other's existence and wanted to visit. My guess is that they were so happy to see each other they were waving as they drove towards the meeting and just forgot the details about avoiding collisions.
Back on Topic- I watched this episode again over the weekend and I was wondering something. The Jem’Hadar are stranded first with no communication- they would most likely have lookouts for any potential enemy forces and/or Dominion craft. A Jem’Hadar fighter craft crashes into the water just off the coast and takes a while to sink with flames and smoke rising and no body seemed to notice it.
Back on Topic- I watched this episode again over the weekend and I was wondering something. The Jem’Hadar are stranded first with no communication- they would most likely have lookouts for any potential enemy forces and/or Dominion craft. A Jem’Hadar fighter craft crashes into the water just off the coast and takes a while to sink with flames and smoke rising and no body seemed to notice it.
So when setting up a primitive planetary slave labor force we should try to locate them far away from the primary mode of shipping? Like a motivations thing...make `em walk farther to build character? Interesting...
Yup, stargates are a neat plot device for bringing the heroes and villains exactly where they need to be for dramatic purposes, logically and plausibly. Freely pilotable spacecraft present bigger plausibility problems.
But Jem'Hadar spacecraft need not be freely pilotable. The Jem'Hadar themselves are far from independent as fighting assets, perhaps playing the "Soviet" role of centrally led troops against the "Western" role of independently thinking fighters (a contrast especially famous from Cold War air warfare). It would make sense for their ships to be subject to all sorts of centralized control, too - in which case having them all crash at basically the same spot would only be logical, as that's where the automation would take them, regardless of crew input.
Timo Saloniemi
But Jem'Hadar spacecraft need not be freely pilotable. The Jem'Hadar themselves are far from independent as fighting assets, perhaps playing the "Soviet" role of centrally led troops against the "Western" role of independently thinking fighters (a contrast especially famous from Cold War air warfare). It would make sense for their ships to be subject to all sorts of centralized control, too - in which case having them all crash at basically the same spot would only be logical, as that's where the automation would take them, regardless of crew input.
Timo Saloniemi
Similar threads
