"Countdown" canon? / "Countdown" Shotdown.

[Brutal Strudel]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

For me, the only way to save this film from being hopelessly stupid is to argue for the inclusion of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes. Otherwise, we are expected to believe that Nero sulked for 25 years.

Watching the film for the first time, I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development. However, it is clear from watching the film as is that Nero was not sitting around doing nothing the entire 25 years. Between the attack on the Kelvin and the attack on Vulcan, he clearly picks up some scars on the right side of his head and loses the top part of his right ear.

All of which could be explained as wounds suffered when George Kirk rammed the Narada with the Kelvin.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Although they didn't write the scripts, Orci & Kurtzman did write the story for the comics.

The comic prequel was written by Mike Johnson and Tim Jones. Orci and Kurtzman were both screenwriters on the film as well as exec producers.

Yes, Mike Johnson and Tim Jones wrote the scripts for each issue but they did not come up with the story. Orci & Kurtzman wrote the movie *AND* they wrote the story for the comics. It's right there in the Countdown credits: "Plot by Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman."

 

[FailedLurker]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

So why isn't it labled "A non-canon story" instead of "Official Prequel Comic".

The comics are billed as "the offical prequel to the upcoming movie" on the cover of the comics.

"Official" ≠ canon. "Official" = not fanfic.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

 

[Daneel]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

They probably figured they'd sell more copies if they promoted it as "the official prequel to the new movie" rather than "some speculation as to what might have led up to the events of the new movie". I'd imagine they're right.

As for Orci and Kurtzman being credited with the story outline for Countdown, I have to wonder how much they actually contributed to the comic. I admit, I don't know --perhaps they were fairly heavily involved-- but I tend to think it's more likely that the comic writers came up with most of the story, using the script (and maybe a rough cut) of the film for background. The cynic in me thinks Orci and Kurtzman's names may have been more or less slapped on to the comic's credits to help legitimize it as the film's official prequel.

Regardless, I still think you can view most of Countdown as canon if you want to. I have no trouble doing so. If you don't want to view it as canon, that's understandable too. Unless a future film blatantly contradicts elements of the comic's story (I mean moreso than the small inconsistencies that are present between Countdown and Star Trek), I think each viewpoint has as much validity as the other.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

They probably figured they'd sell more copies if they promoted it as "the official prequel to the new movie" rather than "some speculation as to what might have led up to the events of the new movie". I'd imagine they're right.

Why not just call the darn thing canon and move on? There's no good reason to discount anything as non-canon other than to say that your too lazy to do any research or work with other people's ideas.

 

[Messianni]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

Because that would be ridiculous, pedantic and only matter to that absolute miniscule fraction of the barely larger fraction of people who would even read the comic in the first place. It's a good yarn, that's all. Not one single piece of tie-in Trek fiction has ever had such a stupid thing printed on it, nor will it ever.

They probably figured they'd sell more copies if they promoted it as "the official prequel to the new movie" rather than "some speculation as to what might have led up to the events of the new movie". I'd imagine they're right.

Why not just call the darn thing canon and move on? There's no good reason to discount anything as non-canon other than to say that your too lazy to do any research or work with other people's ideas.

Because things not on screen have not ever, in over 40 years, been considered "canon" by Paramount. Seriously, how often does this have to be repeated?

And yes, there is a very good reason to discount things as "non-canon": if a new creative team had to pay attention to every single book, comic book, coloring book, fan fiction, napkin scrawling or fan film they would never be able to write with any form of consistency. Plenty of other franchises do the exact same thing. This has nothing to do with lack of research. Quite the contrary, with all of the "in" references in this film that would have been impossible without research.

Also, Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman and even JJ Abrams have absolutely no power to claim if things are canon or not. Only Paramount does. Even Pocket Books has to check in with Paramount before their editors can approve what their writers give them.

 

[FailedLurker]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Why not just call the darn thing canon and move on?

Because it's not a live-action episode or movie.

"Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

Maybe they trusted their readers to be able to figure out on their own whether or not the Countdown comic book series was a live-action episode or movie?

There's no good reason to discount anything as non-canon other than to say that your too lazy to do any research or work with other people's ideas.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Canon does not mean "stuff that really happened." None of it really happened. Canon doles not mean "stuff that is consistent with each other." The shows themselves aren't consistent with each other. Canon does not mean "official." It's all official, as in authorized by the owners of all thing's Trek, CBS/Paramount. Even the Burger King glasses are official.

Canon, in terms of Star Trek, according to the folks who own Star Trek (CBS/Paramount) means live-action episodes and movies. That hasn't changed since the early 90s.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Canon, in terms of Star Trek, according to the folks who own Star Trek (CBS/Paramount) means live-action episodes and movies. That hasn't changed since the early 90s.

Not true. TAS has been canonized in the past. Then de-canonized. It is currently canon once again (at least according to startrek.com), unless of course Paramount's opinion doesn't matter.

 

[Sci]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

Because "non-canon" does not mean "Does not actually happen in the storyline."

"Non-canon" means, "Isn't allowed to contradict the live-action shows and movies." That's it.

 

[FailedLurker]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Canon, in terms of Star Trek, according to the folks who own Star Trek (CBS/Paramount) means live-action episodes and movies. That hasn't changed since the early 90s.

Not true. TAS has been canonized in the past. Then de-canonized. It is currently canon once again (at least according to startrek.com), unless of course Paramount's opinion doesn't matter.

Where on startrek.com does it say that? Most of the articles I found there seem to avoid taking a position one way or another, but the FAQ article begins "As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animates Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon."

But even if you're right, simply remove the "live-action" qualifier. The question "Is the Countdown comic series a TV episode or movie?" isn't all that hard to answer either.

 

[Similitude]

I consider it cannon. They will never revisit that universe with that crew anyways, so does it really matter?

 

[EnsignRicky]

First they try to pass it off as official, now we find out IT'S A FAKE!! That actually is kinda Star Trekish.

 

[FailedLurker]

does it really matter?

No, none of it matters in any way whatsoever. Unless you're in charge of a new Trek novel or comics project and need to know what not to contradict, "canon" is the single most irrelevant question to ask about a piece of Trek.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Countdown is not Canon, and should not be regarded as such at this point.

I believe, however, that JJ Abrams and his creative team should put out an official exception that states that the events as depicted in the Countdown TPB/Comics be considered Canon.

Countdown is such a key piece of the story puzzle, and is of sufficient quality, that it warrants this one-time exception.

 

[Overgeeked]

Countdown is such a key piece of the story puzzle, and is of sufficient quality, that it warrants this one-time exception.

That's the crux right there. There are bits of this film (i.e. the plot holes) that only make sense with the inclusion of Countdown and some of the deleted scenes. That's bad movie making right there.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

For me, the only way to save this film from being hopelessly stupid is to argue for the inclusion of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes. Otherwise, we are expected to believe that Nero sulked for 25 years.

Watching the film for the first time, I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development. However, it is clear from watching the film as is that Nero was not sitting around doing nothing the entire 25 years. Between the attack on the Kelvin and the attack on Vulcan, he clearly picks up some scars on the right side of his head and loses the top part of his right ear.

All of which could be explained as wounds suffered when George Kirk rammed the Narada with the Kelvin.

I think that's how most people explained it... or rather acknowledged it as a fact and then didn't think about it anymore.

Worked fine for me, and I didn't read the comics. All makes sense, and I didn't even have to use my vivid imagination all that much.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Watching the film for the first time, I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development. However, it is clear from watching the film as is that Nero was not sitting around doing nothing the entire 25 years. Between the attack on the Kelvin and the attack on Vulcan, he clearly picks up some scars on the right side of his head and loses the top part of his right ear.

All of which could be explained as wounds suffered when George Kirk rammed the Narada with the Kelvin.

I think that's how most people explained it... or rather acknowledged it as a fact and then didn't think about it anymore.

Worked fine for me, and I didn't read the comics. All makes sense, and I didn't even have to use my vivid imagination all that much.

Sure, great way to explain the scars. He gets them in the fight with the Kelvin. Now there's no explanation of what he was doing while Kirk grew up. He's just sitting out in space, waiting, for 25 years. So we're back to a plot hole.

You need the deleted scenes to explain what Nero and Co were doing for those 25 years.

And you need Countdown to explain how the hell a supernova could threaten the galaxy.

 

[JoeD80]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

I admit, I don't know --perhaps they were fairly heavily involved-- but I tend to think it's more likely that the comic writers came up with most of the story, using the script (and maybe a rough cut) of the film for background. The cynic in me thinks Orci and Kurtzman's names may have been more or less slapped on to the comic's credits to help legitimize it as the film's official prequel.

Admittedly I don't have insight into their specific contracts, but I find it hard to believe that a writer would share story credit with someone that hadn't actually come up with the story. Also, I found a portion of an interview where Orci talks about coming up with the comic idea:

So the prequel comics are a way to connect what was the series that got us into the show and allowed us to go through the next phase of the show, which was Star Trek: The Next Generation. The last time you saw Leonard Nimoy in Star Trek continuity was in Star Trek: The Next Generation [the two-part 'Unification'] so the idea of connecting that material to our movie, just as a fan, was something we wanted to do.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I thought it was great but could have done without any TNG characters.

IDW's point was to give TNG-only fans - and there are lots of them - an entry point into the new movie. They knew Spock only from "Unification", so it's only natural they'd enjoy seeing four TNG characters appear in a 24th century comic. Sure, you could have Captain Red, Ambassador Smith, retired Engineer Brown and an unknown Klingon leader, but that would hardly make it a must-buy for TNG fans.