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"Countdown" canon? / "Countdown" Shotdown.

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)

Also, why would the Federation need an ambassador to one of their own founding member worlds? That's like the United States having an ambassador to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or the United Kingdom having an ambassador to Scotland, or Canada having an ambassador to Quebec, or the Federal Republic of Germany having an ambassador to Bavaria, or the Commonwealth of Australia having an ambassador to New South Wales, or...

I think it's more like Germany having an ambassador to France, which makes perfect sense.

As I've noted already, the comparison of the Federation to the European Union doesn't really work. The United Federation of Planets is just that -- a federation, a sovereign state comprised of sub-polities with whom the state shares power. The European Union, on the other hand, is an especially strong alliance of sovereign states that has been delegated some of the functions of a sovereign state -- but which is not itself a sovereign state, as evidenced by the lack of a unified foreign policy (e.g., the United Kingdom and Kingdom of Spain participating in the Iraq War while the French Republic and Federal Republic of Germany oppose the war) and lack of international recognition of the EU as a sovereign state.

The Federation, on the other hand, possesses all of the traits of a sovereign state. It has the right to make binding law throughout its territory (TNG: "Force of Nature"). It raises and maintains its own military in the Federation Starfleet. It can unilaterally declare martial law over the territory of one of its member states (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"). It can conduct foreign policy without getting its member states' permissions (Star Trek VI). It exchanges ambassadors with other sovereign states. It declares war and wages peace. Etc.
Or, just as Starfleet Academy is NOT a carbon copy of current US military academies (protests from the uniformed crowd notwithstanding), the Federation is not a carbon copy of current political systems and could easily be a "hybrid" that allows for both some sovereign behaviour as a single entity AND some behaviour where each member has sufficient autonomy to warrant ambassadors to other members. Individual Federation members are NOT forbidden from entering into diplomatic relations with non-members independent of the Federation itself as a body--though they are likely restricted by Federation policies in what they can or cannot do in such a bilateral relationship (and even then, I'm giving this much more thought than anyone has demonstrated in Trek on screen).

It is a very minor point upon which to get stuck.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Ok ... here are some fine points I gathered from the movie:

The Narada had no Borg technology on it.

It was and always has been a mining vessel of the late 24th century that due to Spock's launching red matter into the supernova (which created a singularity) ended up in the past, and it didn't posses Red matter until Nero captured the Jellyfish.

The reason the Narada had a large arsenal of 'weapons' may not be atypical to Romulan mining vessels of that era to begin with (from 23rd century point of view though, of course it would seem exceptionally advanced and heavily armed).
Size of the ship itself?
Easy. The Romulans loved constructing huge warbird's relying more on the intimidation factor while the overall internal volume of their 2x larger ships would be practically the same like the one of a Galaxy class ship.

Mining ships would be relied upon to have the tools necessary to 'crack' hard enough materials and in plentiful supply, so they wouldn't have to restock anytime soon.
The missiles the Narada used in most of her engagements were potent (and probably something they could have replaced) but even so, a single volley didn't destroy the Enterprise, it brought their shields down to 32% and inflicted various damages.
It crippled the Kelvin of course in a first volley because it was less advanced.
25 years is the time-span between Kelvin's destruction and the time the Enterprise was launched (and it's unlikely Nero was upgrading his ship in the process, while the Feds would continue to advance).
Also, given that Kelvin's destruction was inflicted by a highly advanced ship to begin with would likely cause SF to bring forth some technological innovations that were not implemented in the original time-line.
Up-scaling the Enterprise for one thing to over 700 meters, stronger shields/weapons, and various other systems
Kelvin's destruction could have easily altered the technological progression enough to explain the changes we saw.

The only 'beef' I really had was a star going supernova and threatened to destroy a whole galaxy.
Then again, Spock never really stated which star went nova, and what were the circumstances that lead to it.
For all we (or the characters) know, the supernova could have been caused by someone or something.
Artifically enhanced in potency for example while also interacting with subspace to spread over the entire galaxy.
 
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Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

You don't know what the plot hole in Hamlet is? Have you ever read the damn thing?

How does Hamlet get back from England, obviously! I mean, he gives this quick and breezey little explanation that makes next to no sense. "Pirates!" he says. He got away because of pirates? Whaaaaaaaaaat?

Huge frickin' plot hole. As big as whether or not Lady Macbeth had children.

What's with the attitude when it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about here. Have you read the play? Hamlet goes into more of an explanation that the version of the story you present.

Act 4, Scene 6, Horatio reads a letter sent from Hamlet explaining that his ship attacked and he was captured by pirates. Hamlet later explains that he convinced the pirates to return him to Denmark on the assumption that Hamlet will reward them.

How is this a plot hole? Truth is, it isn't. Is it strange? Yes. A deus ex machina, for sure. But a plot hole, no.

If Hamlet just returned with no explanation given, then, yes, a plot hole will be arisen.

Of course it's a bloody plot hole. The pirates just do what Hamlet asks them and brings him back home? Whaaat? C'mon. Pirates wouldn't do that -- they'd take the Prince of Denmark hostage and demand huge sums of money for his safe return.

It would have been better for him to return with no explanation. Either way, plot hole.

But either way, we digress. My point is served:

How Hamlet returned doesn't matter to the story. At one point in the story, Hamlet needs to be gone, and in another, he needs to be back in Denmark. The hows of it don't matter. What matters are the characters and the themes. The plot exists to serve those two, not the other way around. That's why nonsensical plot developments in any story can be excused if they serve well some good characterization and themes.

So it is with Hamlet, and so it is with the so-called "plot holes" of Star Trek.

Points taken. However, if the plot holes distract from the characterization and themes, then there is a problem.

Hamlet's pirate rescue wasn't really distracting at all when compared to stuff from Star Trek, such as why the Feds didn't go after Nero and the Kelvin incident, or why the Enterprise doesn't fire a torpedo at the drill when they are attacking Vulcan, or how Kirk can go from cadet to captain within a few days time.

For me, I know there is a problem with a movie when I am noticing stuff like this as the movie is going along.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

No Trek Canon Article said:
What would you say if a Trek reboot came along in which Kirk has a wife named Lori Ciana…looks at things through a dead-serious New Age perspective…and has a mind implant that shows him visions of galactic crises?

Let’s say this reboot was hyped as taking place in a more mature, “realistic” future than previous Trek. With apologies to Patrick Stewart in Ricky Gervais’s Extras, this re-imagining would ask, what if you had a ship like the U.S.S. Enterprise IN THE REAL WORLD?…Forget that Trouble With Tribbles shit, this is what the future is really going to be like.

In this new Trek, after 200 years of social change, 23rd century human beings won’t be regular folks as we know them but “New Humans”…a more evolved race who don’t go in for 20th century customs like first names, or monogamy. This is a reboot so different in tone that it actually calls out the original Trek as just a kid’s show in comparison, like the original BSG with the robot dog.

I want that. Book, movie, direct-to-DVD, mini series, I don't care.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Ok ... here are some fine points I gathered from the movie:

The Narada had no Borg technology on it.

It was and always has been a mining vessel of the late 24th century that due to Spock's launching red matter into the supernova (which created a singularity) ended up in the past, and it didn't posses Red matter until Nero captured the Jellyfish.

The reason the Narada had a large arsenal of 'weapons' may not be atypical to Romulan mining vessels of that era to begin with (from 23rd century point of view though, of course it would seem exceptionally advanced and heavily armed).
Size of the ship itself?
Easy. The Romulans loved constructing huge warbird's relying more on the intimidation factor while the overall internal volume of their 2x larger ships would be practically the same like the one of a Galaxy class ship.

Mining ships would be relied upon to have the tools necessary to 'crack' hard enough materials and in plentiful supply, so they wouldn't have to restock anytime soon.
The missiles the Narada used in most of her engagements were potent (and probably something they could have replaced) but even so, a single volley didn't destroy the Enterprise, it brought their shields down to 32% and inflicted various damages.
It crippled the Kelvin of course in a first volley because it was less advanced.

That's more or less why I'm fine leaving the Borg stuff out, too.

25 years is the time-span between Kelvin's destruction and the time the Enterprise was launched (and it's unlikely Nero was upgrading his ship in the process, while the Feds would continue to advance).
Also, given that Kelvin's destruction was inflicted by a highly advanced ship to begin with would likely cause SF to bring forth some technological innovations that were not implemented in the original time-line.
Up-scaling the Enterprise for one thing to over 700 meters, stronger shields/weapons, and various other systems
Kelvin's destruction could have easily altered the technological progression enough to explain the changes we saw.

Yep, that works for me too. Would I prefer the Enterprise was smaller? Sure. But still.

And, I think the important thing is that you took these conclusions more or less from the movie itself. :techman:
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

No Trek Canon Article said:
What would you say if a Trek reboot came along in which Kirk has a wife named Lori Ciana…looks at things through a dead-serious New Age perspective…and has a mind implant that shows him visions of galactic crises?

Let’s say this reboot was hyped as taking place in a more mature, “realistic” future than previous Trek. With apologies to Patrick Stewart in Ricky Gervais’s Extras, this re-imagining would ask, what if you had a ship like the U.S.S. Enterprise IN THE REAL WORLD?…Forget that Trouble With Tribbles shit, this is what the future is really going to be like.

In this new Trek, after 200 years of social change, 23rd century human beings won’t be regular folks as we know them but “New Humans”…a more evolved race who don’t go in for 20th century customs like first names, or monogamy. This is a reboot so different in tone that it actually calls out the original Trek as just a kid’s show in comparison, like the original BSG with the robot dog.

I want that. Book, movie, direct-to-DVD, mini series, I don't care.

You can easily get it--the book, that is. It's Roddenberry's own novelization of TMP.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Honestly, until or unless they come up with a better "canon" explanation for some of the things Countdown explained, I'm going to consider it as what actually occurred.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

And just so everyone knows, in COUNTDOWN the supernova if left along wouldn't have destroyed the galaxy. It would have destroyed the entire UNIVERSE! (Spock's words) That part didn't make sense either.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Yeah, that part was a little "WTF?" I prefer to interpret the whole "supernova that threatened the galaxy" thing to mean that it threatened to destabilize the political situation which could have lead to a major and destructive war.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Honestly, until or unless they come up with a better "canon" explanation for some of the things Countdown explained, I'm going to consider it as what actually occurred.
Feel free. According to Orci, the reason it's not "canon" is because it's not on-screen (the de facto policy since "canon" became an issue). It's not because the filmmakers don't sanction it.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Honestly, until or unless they come up with a better "canon" explanation for some of the things Countdown explained, I'm going to consider it as what actually occurred.
Feel free. According to Orci, the reason it's not "canon" is because it's not on-screen (the de facto policy since "canon" became an issue). It's not because the filmmakers don't sanction it.
Oh, I know. I understand how Trek canon works, but for me, most of Countdown works just fine.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

It was alright. I liked the Nero/Spock stuff. I could have done with less clumsy shoehorning of TNG characters. I would have preferred Picard as captain of the E-E and I didn't mind Worf. Data and Geordi did not add much, IMO.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

^ ^ Data's character was drawn pretty kick-butt, though. He was lookin hawt.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

If you say so. I prefer a different anatomical layout for my "fully functioning" androids. :lol:
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I meant above the waist; his face, in fact.

He looked resolute instead of blank.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I thought it was great but could have done without any TNG characters. Having 3 including one resurrected (or "restored") from the dead was waaaay too much.

That tattooing scene was excellent. You could really see Nero taking his steps into the darkness.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

It helped a lot with the Jellyfish; I got to love that ship. I already liked the design of Vulcan ships.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I meant above the waist; his face, in fact.

He looked resolute instead of blank.
I know. I was just making a rather lame joke about not being into other guys. It's late here and my brain is "firing on all thrusters". With that, I'm off to catch some zzzzs (or as we call them up here, some zeds ;) ).

Bonne nuit.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

It helped a lot with the Jellyfish; I got to love that ship. I already liked the design of Vulcan ships.
I might have missed it but I don't remember ever hearing Spock's ship being referred to as the Jellyfish. Could you tell me if I just missed it, or it was inscribed on the hull? Thanks.
 
Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

startrekwatcher, Page 61, first balloon: "It is called the Jellyfish."
 
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