You don't have to make that choice.
Just remember that These Aren't the Voyages is pure crap, unworthy of being taken seriously, and it all goes away.
Could TATV have been good?
- Thread starter jgdst
- Start date
Just remember that These Aren't the Voyages is pure crap, unworthy of being taken seriously, and it all goes away.
TATV could have been a good episode, even a good series finale, with a decent but ruthless rewrite. It seemed to be written for insertion earlier in the series, like S2, with Trip's death tagged on. None of the characters were in line with how we knew they had grown from S3 on. So their reactions and decisions seemed like regressions. For example, by now Archer knows how incredibly important the first steps of the Federation are: he's seen the future and the ramifications if it doesn't happen. No way he deviates from that course for a rescue mission. Trip (aka Space McGuyver) knows that Archer always at least tries to escape - and they know each other well enough to practically read each others' minds (way back in Andorian Incident, they communicate with sign language, mirrors, and eyebrows). No way Trip resorts to a desperation move without trying to come up with a plan with Archer. Reed? MIA. There's no Reed Alert (which we know happens automatically) and no MACO response. And, as others have pointed out, there's no affection or sadness at Trip's death from Reed (who, arguably has become Trip's close friend), or Hoshi (who spent her "last minutes" with him once). The six year time gap adds name tags (which I actually like) but no promotions.
Someone other than B&B should have taken the script and conformed it to the growth and development of the characters as they were at the end of S4 - and then developed them further to account for the six additional years. Give Trip an actual reason to sacrifice himself (JiNX's idea is really on the money).
Review, revise, rewrite. I have no problem with Archer's speech not being shown; it leaves a real sense of walking into the future.
Someone other than B&B should have taken the script and conformed it to the growth and development of the characters as they were at the end of S4 - and then developed them further to account for the six additional years. Give Trip an actual reason to sacrifice himself (JiNX's idea is really on the money).
Review, revise, rewrite. I have no problem with Archer's speech not being shown; it leaves a real sense of walking into the future.
CaptainHawk1
Commodore
Nope, it wasn't clear because I didn't see it beause I didn't bother to read the prior posts...Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.How the holy fuck did this get into the discussion about wheter or not TATV could have been good or not? You just can't let it alone can you?Well, now that that's settled, I'll just mosey along to the next thread.
...
There will be NO MORE TALK OF POLITICS in this forum. The next person to try it will earn a warning.
My bad...
Moving along...
-Shawn
We could have had an MU TATV where Worf looks at a holodeck of IaMD to see how to crush the Terran rebellion.
TATV was a pile of gobshite. Sort of.
It was certainly misguided for the ENT characters to be virutally cast aside in a TNG fantasy. It was also misguided to tie the episode to 'The Pegasus,' as the two had absolutely nothing in common. Well, except for Riker and Troi of course!
The idea of the TNG crew watching the ENT crew on the holodeck would have been a good episode for sweeps or something - the potential would then have been there for 'In A Mirror Darkly' fun. Rewrite the episode into something like that, and you have a better episode.
For ENT's finale, you can cut out the holodeck crap, the crap with Shran's daughter, the crap character assassination that Shran went through, and the crap jump in time. Not that I'm against jumps in time, the jarring problem was the total lack of development characters received in the six years leading up to TATV, except for haircuts and uniform alterations.
Trip's death would be fine if it had an ounce of meaning. Make the final mission count, and have Trip save his friends doing something heroic, and have his friends *mourn* him for more than half a minute. Whoever upthread mentioned aligning the end of the Romulan War with the Titan post-Nemesis was really onto something.
It was certainly misguided for the ENT characters to be virutally cast aside in a TNG fantasy. It was also misguided to tie the episode to 'The Pegasus,' as the two had absolutely nothing in common. Well, except for Riker and Troi of course!
The idea of the TNG crew watching the ENT crew on the holodeck would have been a good episode for sweeps or something - the potential would then have been there for 'In A Mirror Darkly' fun. Rewrite the episode into something like that, and you have a better episode.
For ENT's finale, you can cut out the holodeck crap, the crap with Shran's daughter, the crap character assassination that Shran went through, and the crap jump in time. Not that I'm against jumps in time, the jarring problem was the total lack of development characters received in the six years leading up to TATV, except for haircuts and uniform alterations.
Trip's death would be fine if it had an ounce of meaning. Make the final mission count, and have Trip save his friends doing something heroic, and have his friends *mourn* him for more than half a minute. Whoever upthread mentioned aligning the end of the Romulan War with the Titan post-Nemesis was really onto something.
As much as I liked Riker and Deanna, they should have probably been left out of the episode. TATV ended up being more TNG related and less of an ENT episode.
There was also the death of Trip.
If the finale had been more about the ENT crew and Trip had not been killed off, the episode would IMO have been more well received.
There was also the death of Trip.
If the finale had been more about the ENT crew and Trip had not been killed off, the episode would IMO have been more well received.
I tend to dislike both framing devices and character death. This was one of the worst cases I have ever seen of the former (far from the worst character death, great as Trip is, only because the show was ending anyway).
The holodeck thing could have worked if it had been really outlandish, like on Voyager, and if it had not been a finale. But I don't see any way that adding Riker and Troi could enhance such an episode, and I don't see why killing Trip off would add anything to it.
The holodeck thing could have worked if it had been really outlandish, like on Voyager, and if it had not been a finale. But I don't see any way that adding Riker and Troi could enhance such an episode, and I don't see why killing Trip off would add anything to it.
I'm not bitter about TATV. Non-canon though it may be, The Good That Men Do actually made it worthwhile.
Amen!!! Thought Kobayashi Maru wasn't as good as TGTMD I think that it was still definitely readable. I am highly anticipating the third book in this series, The Romulan War, which I think it currently slated to come out later this year.
Having watched TATV before I had even seen one episode of TNG, I didn't really understand and that made me hate it worse than I do now that I kinda understand why the two people I didn't recognize were in it. So I guess coming from the POV of a Trek newbie, I don't like the episode anymore now than I did before I watched TNG, but I do understand it better. I don't know what they could have done to make it a better episode, but I do know what they did to make it terrible. Killing Trip off, the regression of characters, the lack of development in the intervening 6 years, pretty much the whole layout of the episode sucked. I think a lot of folks who have been viewers of Trek far longer than I have and who understand it far better than I do have come up with some brilliant ideas on how to make TATV actually watchable (I have only seen it once but I think I need to stomach it again since I just completed my TNG viewing so that I can better understand it and thus be able to bitch about it more coherently) but sadly it's a little too late. TATV is just one more reason to string Rick Berman up on the nearest bonfire and set it aflame. 
"The Pegasus" was a B-level, fairly good TNG episode.
"TATV" as a Z-grade ENT offering that made its TNG forebear look ten times worse.
"TATV" as a Z-grade ENT offering that made its TNG forebear look ten times worse.
A fitting conclusion to this discussion, if you ask me...
TATV is one of those "good idea, shit execution" things, to me. The current episode would have sucked even as a mid-season filler for many reasons that have been hashed over to death for the past nearly four years. It would have made sense to made this more a nod to TOS (to which Enterprise is a prequel of) and less of TNG.
No, it was a mess. The TNG tie in was poorly executed, no nods whatsoever to VOY or DS9 (and only the end montage for TOS.)
The only time it doesn't bother me to kill off a character is when the actor wishes to leave a series or if the actor or character isn't working in the role. I dislike the current mentality that killing a character is "dramatic". It is just a stunt and for some reason makes writers and creators feel like they are making a brave decision. Killing off any of the main characters in the TATV felt like a slap in my face. I didn't appreciate the sentiment at all...
The only time it doesn't bother me to kill off a character is when the actor wishes to leave a series or if the actor or character isn't working in the role. I dislike the current mentality that killing a character is "dramatic". It is just a stunt and for some reason makes writers and creators feel like they are making a brave decision. Killing off any of the main characters in the TATV felt like a slap in my face. I didn't appreciate the sentiment at all...
Without some massive historical event exclusive to ENT, which suddenly becomes important to the 24th century... nope, not a chance in hell.
Personally I'd have liked to see a plot like Voyager's Living Witness, showing differences between a myth built around the NX's exploits after 200 years. Maybe how the Romulan War ended... attrocities committed by Earth Starfleet and history books re-written in a positive light. The cast get to have fun playing two versions of their characters - the noble Roddenberryesque type recorded down in logs and the other morally suspect interpretation.
Flash forward to a future generation dealing with this past. Leave audiences to decide what happened or lead them to conclude neither was true - something inbetween.
Personally I'd have liked to see a plot like Voyager's Living Witness, showing differences between a myth built around the NX's exploits after 200 years. Maybe how the Romulan War ended... attrocities committed by Earth Starfleet and history books re-written in a positive light. The cast get to have fun playing two versions of their characters - the noble Roddenberryesque type recorded down in logs and the other morally suspect interpretation.
Flash forward to a future generation dealing with this past. Leave audiences to decide what happened or lead them to conclude neither was true - something inbetween.
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That is a brilliant idea.
TATV. Should never have been fiklmed or shown. Howeveer, here is what I would have liked to seen.
Trip and T-Pol married the Bond they had being so strong thtt it could not have been lost and it drew them together in marriage.
No Trip death, obviously.
Reed, Hoshi, Travis all promoted at least two grades. They would have had to been total incompetents not to have won promotions in al of that time.
ARcher made Admiiral and have him go save Shran daughter he likes being a Hero after all.
Allow the characters to mingle and talk about what they had been doing the past ten years so that viewers can find out what happened in the Romulan War as each probably had a part in it.
At the end, llet the cast memebers say goodby to the viewers and thank them for their suupoort.
Trip and T-Pol married the Bond they had being so strong thtt it could not have been lost and it drew them together in marriage.
No Trip death, obviously.
Reed, Hoshi, Travis all promoted at least two grades. They would have had to been total incompetents not to have won promotions in al of that time.
ARcher made Admiiral and have him go save Shran daughter he likes being a Hero after all.
Allow the characters to mingle and talk about what they had been doing the past ten years so that viewers can find out what happened in the Romulan War as each probably had a part in it.
At the end, llet the cast memebers say goodby to the viewers and thank them for their suupoort.
It's been nearly four years and I still don't understand what the hell Riker's situation regarding Admiral Pressman and the Pegasus had to do with ANYTHING on NX-01
And Berman and Braga were under the delusion this was a "valentines" to Trek fans?
If you needed proof these guys were driving Trek into oblivion, there it was.
And Berman and Braga were under the delusion this was a "valentines" to Trek fans?
If you needed proof these guys were driving Trek into oblivion, there it was.
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