Could TATV have been good?

[jgdst]

Hmm off to a good start - I've missed a word out of the thread title

If Enterprise had gone seven seasons, and These Are The Voyages was used as a filler episode or a Very Special Episode, would it have been easier to stomach?

As a series finale, it's a pretty poor story, and if it had been shown as originally intended - as a season finale - I'm still not sure it would've worked.

If they'd held onto it, and used the basic premise (i.e. the future generations look to how Enterprise did things) to celebrate the TNG era's 20th anniversary, or the franchise's 40th anniversary, in one of the later seasons, could it have worked? Obviously certain plot points would have to be changed - the ship wouldn't be being mothballed, there (probably) wouldn't be an upcoming speech for the formation of the Federation, Trip couldn't have died and the link to The Pegasus could be removed.

Assuming they came up with an intelligent or blelievable way of introducing characters from the various shows (even if it was still set on a holodeck, á la VOY's Living Witness maybe), I think it could've worked and could possibly have been looked on as a favourite. As it was, the execution was all wrong and it only served to earn fandom's wrath for all eternity

So, in this parallel universe where Enterprise never got cancelled, and Travis got lines every week, do you think TATV is being heralded as a good episode, or was it always destined to fail?

 

[USS Intrepid]

Re: Could TATV been good?

I think if TATV had in some way tied into Riker's decision to finally accept a promotion and leave the Enterprise, and had dealt with the question of change, then yes, it could have been pretty good.

As it is, I don't hate it. There are actually some really nice scenes in there, though ultimately the main thrust of the story simply doesn't come together. Tying it into Pegasus simply didn't work. Overall, I think the basic premise (Riker looking back over some major historical event) was a good idea, but not well executed.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: Could TATV been good?

TATV has a conundrum going for it... it's completely incapable of being a series finale (as we already saw) yet it's too ambitious to be a standalone mid-season filler episode.

With that said, get rid of some of the more drastic moments (Tucker dying, for one), and reframe the episode in that, really, none of the main characters are there, and it could be good.

Heck, for that matter, I don't see how this episode could work without a major overhaul. The writers have every right to frame this as a TNG episode, sure, but what TATV ultimately is is a fanboy living his cosplay fantasies to solve a major life decision. Does anyone else find that really disturbing?

Worse yet, the episode is a sequel to a TNG episode that, while great, was already pretty obscure by the time TATV (or Broken Bow, for that matter) hit production. It was less of a love letter to the fans and more of the writers going, "Hey, we CAN do continuity!"

It could've been Riker and Troi doing a retrospective about the NX-01 (without being a dreaded clipshow), with the ultimate plot be about celebrating the show while simultaneously having it as, oh, I dunno, Federation Day (?), rather than having Riker use it to come clean about his conscience.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Could TATV been good?

Could TATV have been good? Sure. If you watch it sideways while having screaming buttsex with some lovely gal, why not. However, you must take into notice that in that case pretty much everything turns out being quite watchable.

 

[USS Intrepid]

Re: Could TATV been good?

It could've been Riker and Troi doing a retrospective about the NX-01 (without being a dreaded clipshow), with the ultimate plot be about celebrating the show while simultaneously having it as, oh, I dunno, Federation Day (?), rather than having Riker use it to come clean about his conscience.

Yeah that could have worked. Although I think the TNG era of the story would have to involve some sort of dramatic angle, to keep it interesting. Though that shouldn't be the main thrust if the show.

Heck, maybe The Enterprise E is visiting some world that declined to join the Federation back in 2161 (Denobula maybe) and is going back to pick up were Archer's crew left off. Instead of having Riker viewing holodeck recreations, have him looking over old log entries or Archers, and use those to fade into the NX-01 era events.

Having one of the future crews following up on one of Archer's missions would have been a nice tie in, albeit not terribly original.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Re: Could TATV been good?

Could TATV have been good? Sure. If you watch it sideways while having screaming buttsex with some lovely gal, why not. However, you must take into notice that in that case pretty much everything turns out being quite watchable.

I imagine pretty much the same thing. I wasn't the one screaming, though.

It was good, it just sucked as the finale to a series. The fans of Enterprise didn't deserve to have the big series piss on us.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: Could TATV been good?

It could've been Riker and Troi doing a retrospective about the NX-01 (without being a dreaded clipshow), with the ultimate plot be about celebrating the show while simultaneously having it as, oh, I dunno, Federation Day (?), rather than having Riker use it to come clean about his conscience.

Yeah that could have worked. Although I think the TNG era of the story would have to involve some sort of dramatic angle, to keep it interesting. Though that shouldn't be the main thrust if the show.

Heck, maybe The Enterprise E is visiting some world that declined to join the Federation back in 2161 (Denobula maybe) and is going back to pick up were Archer's crew left off. Instead of having Riker viewing holodeck recreations, have him looking over old log entries or Archers, and use those to fade into the NX-01 era events.

Having one of the future crews following up on one of Archer's missions would have been a nice tie in, albeit not terribly original.

I suppose I still have memories of Voyager, where even the fun, lighthearted episodes or the episodes with reasons to celebrate, still had some sort of useless, meaningless firefight or unnecessarily dangerous situation as a tacked on "climax." If there was an episode that celebrated the NX-01 crew without having them as main characters, I'd certainly wouldn't want to go down that route

But with your idea, maybe it could be expanded upon with a bit more layering. Starfleet dispatches the TNG crew to (or the Titan crew!) to solve a mystery that the NX-01 crew from two centuries prior encountered, ultimately discovering why Archer erased/didn't record the final log for that particular mission and what the consequences were for that mission. It would have aspects of exploration and hindsight rolled into one.

 

[USS Intrepid]

Re: Could TATV been good?

I suppose I still have memories of Voyager, where even the fun, lighthearted episodes or the episodes with reasons to celebrate, still had some sort of useless, meaningless firefight or unnecessarily dangerous situation as a tacked on "climax." If there was an episode that celebrated the NX-01 crew without having them as main characters, I'd certainly wouldn't want to go down that route

But with your idea, maybe it could be expanded upon with a bit more layering. Starfleet dispatches the TNG crew to (or the Titan crew!) to solve a mystery that the NX-01 crew from two centuries prior encountered, ultimately discovering why Archer erased/didn't record the final log for that particular mission and what the consequences were for that mission. It would have aspects of exploration and hindsight rolled into one.

That's pretty much what I was suggesting. When I said a "dramatic angle" I wasn't referring to a firefight.

 

[Mach5]

Re: Could TATV been good?

Instead of having Riker viewing holodeck recreations, have him looking over old log entries or Archers, and use those to fade into the NX-01 era events.

Excellent idea!

- Further more, I would have given TATV a "USS Titan" framing, so Frakes' and Sirtis' age wouldn't be an issue.
- The entire "Shran's daughter" nonsense would have been dropped (Hell, it would've never been written in the first place )
- Trip wouldn't commit suicide, he would either die a hero, or not at all.
- TnT's "Do you ever miss me" crap - a major NO NO.

 

[cooleddie74]

As a midseason/sweeps "stunt" episode to tie the Archer and Picard eras together? And without Trip dying...and in such a horridly stupid fashion?

Yes. But context and timing were so much with this episode. And the context and timing sank it.

 

[28VulcansLater]

“Enterprise” definitely deserved a better conclusion. I wish they didn’t feel the need to have included a time shift element to the finale (trying to emulate “All Good Things” and “Endgame”) and just of had a good ending set after “Demons”/”Terra Prime”.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not bitter about TATV. Non-canon though it may be, The Good That Men Do actually made it worthwhile.

 

[Mach5]

I'm not bitter about TATV. Non-canon though it may be, The Good That Men Do actually made it worthwhile.

Praise your positive attitude!
As much as I enjoyed "The Good That Men Do," I would gladly throw it away if it meant erasing TATV from existence (But that's just me).

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: Could TATV been good?

- Further more, I would have given TATV a "USS Titan" framing, so Frakes' and Sirtis' age wouldn't be an issue.
- The entire "Shran's daughter" nonsense would have been dropped (Hell, it would've never been written in the first place )
- Trip wouldn't commit suicide, he would either die a hero, or not at all.
- TnT's "Do you ever miss me" crap - a major NO NO.

Excellent points, I agree wholeheartedly. TATV definitely could have been good.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

I think that if the script for "These Are the Voyages..." would have been top notch then the episode really would have been a valentine to the fans as promised. I think that having a Star Trek character or two looking back at Enterprise is a great storytelling premise for a series finale. For one, it unites Enterprise with the rest of Trek-Lore; for two, it allows the writers to skip ahead through time and show us scenes they might not have ever gotten to in the course of seven production seasons; and for three, cross-over events are kind of a big deal.

I also agree with Mach 5's list of things that should be cut from the story to make it work. I'd like to point out why they suck so much.

Shran's Daughter/Space mobsters Plotline: This is character assasination on the part of Shran. Shran was filled with what I guess would be the Andorian equivelent of justice and I don't think that even having lost his ship and becoming grounded would have him deal with mobsters. Besides that, the whole thing was just uninspired, like the B-plot to a forgotten episode.

Trip's Death: It was probably the most contrived death in the history of Star Trek and Trip was a pretty popular character. If they absolutely had to kill Trip off they should have done it with grandeur.

No advancements/promotions: C'mon! If this is really the best crew in Starfleet these guys should get to go up at least a rung on the ladder. It makes it appear that nothing happened in the missing years. Promote Mayweather and Hoshi. Maybe give Reid an eyepatch. Even if a fifth season had followed it would have been fun plot points to look out for.

 

[commodore64]

I bought that the holodeck was a collection of events from Archer's logs and other historical documents. I mean, where else would they have gotten the information for Riker's personal journey?

I didn't mind that Trip died, but thought his death could've been more humane.

If I had to create an ending, which is different than "how to make TATV good," I would've:
* Not included Riker or Troi
* If I killed Trip, the cause would be more significant, but I probably wouldn't. I'd probably give him a promotion to captain (but not because I thought he was a bitchin' captain, but because I'd want to show the crew moving on)
* Wrap up the TCW, which is how the ENT adventure began
* Give T'Pol a clear path for her next journey, which I think should be as the Vulcan ambassador to Earth and give her an aide named Skon
* Explain what the Romulans have to do with TCW and how it caused the Rom/Earth war
* Promote Archer to admiral (without really a choice; he'd stay a captain like Kirk if he could)
* Assign Reed to work with two people from the Academy named Kobayshi and Maru
* Have Travis tell the designers of the new ship that it'd be easier if they split helm and navigation as two different roles
* Have Phlox follow Trip to his next adventure, but maybe one of his sons joins him (poignant b/c they had a falling out)
* Give Hoshi the option of working for Starfleet, but have her decline because she likes translating real time, but also because she'd grown more adventurous

 

[JiNX-01]

My fix for TATV:

Riker and Troi scenes are set in the immediate aftermath of Nemesis. They're enroute to the Titan aboard a transport ship. Riker is looking out a window, musing about the change in Federation-Romulan relations. Troi does a "penny for your thoughts" line and he remarks that they might be seeing the end of the Romulan neutral zone. He that points toward a small nebula ... he tells her that that was where the agreement to end the Earth-Romulan wars was negotiated and the RNZ established. It was Archer's last mission as captain of Enterprise to escort Earth's negotiators to the site.

The Orions had profited from spying on and supplying both sides and tries to stop the talks ... Trip sacrifices himself to save the chief negotiator on the Romulan side, thus preventing the continuation of the war.

 

[USS Intrepid]

My fix for TATV:

Riker and Troi scenes are set in the immediate aftermath of Nemesis. They're enroute to the Titan aboard a transport ship. Riker is looking out a window, musing about the change in Federation-Romulan relations. Troi does a "penny for your thoughts" line and he remarks that they might be seeing the end of the Romulan neutral zone. He that points toward a small nebula ... he tells her that that was where the agreement to end the Earth-Romulan wars was negotiated and the RNZ established. It was Archer's last mission as captain of Enterprise to escort Earth's negotiators to the site.

The Orions had profited from spying on and supplying both sides and tries to stop the talks ... Trip sacrifices himself to save the chief negotiator on the Romulan side, thus preventing the continuation of the war.

I really like that idea.

 

[joncreed]

TATV could have been a great series finale if it was treated as an Enterprise series finale and not just another way for BermanBraga to relive the "glory" days of the early 90s with TNG. I agree with the previous poster and ditch Shran's kidnapped daughter story- who cares?! I'm one of the few people who was never a fan of Shran- annoying blue-skinned blowhole with a Napoleon Complex! Anyway, I would've had the Enterprise escorting Vulcans to the Coalition Come to Jesus Conference or whatever it was called and have them revealed as Romulan Agents out to sabotage the galactic pow-wow. Killing off Trip?- sure, but should've been done more meaningful and not the half-assed suicide by electrical cables! No holodeck morality play from some obscure TNG episode with Riker having a "crisis of conscience." I would've had TATV end with Archer walking up to the podium to make his big speech then fade to 200 years or so later showing Captain Riker and wife Troi of the Titan celebrating Federation Day in San Francisco, they're looking at Archer's bronze statue, musing about the first crew's dedication, Trip's sacrifice, blah, blah, blah. I would throw a curveball at the final scene: Riker and Troi on board the Titan at Jupiter station preparing to go underway, they are greeting the new crew members, a long-haired woman with Vulcan ears approaches and she's Jolene Blalock presenting herself as new science officer Commander T'Lesa Tucker- granddaughter (or great-granddaughter) of Trip and T'Pol-revealing that Trip's death was a "slight" exaggeration.

 

[jgdst]

My fix for TATV:

Riker and Troi scenes are set in the immediate aftermath of Nemesis. They're enroute to the Titan aboard a transport ship. Riker is looking out a window, musing about the change in Federation-Romulan relations. Troi does a "penny for your thoughts" line and he remarks that they might be seeing the end of the Romulan neutral zone. He that points toward a small nebula ... he tells her that that was where the agreement to end the Earth-Romulan wars was negotiated and the RNZ established. It was Archer's last mission as captain of Enterprise to escort Earth's negotiators to the site.

The Orions had profited from spying on and supplying both sides and tries to stop the talks ... Trip sacrifices himself to save the chief negotiator on the Romulan side, thus preventing the continuation of the war.

I really like that idea.

Seconded!