Could Star Trek V been saved?

[The Wormhole]

I wish I were making this up, but NDEs involving hell often have the angel/God/Jesus/(insert your religion's deity) blaming the person themselves for going to hell,

I mean, that's hardly unique to angels or deities in near death experiences. Am I to understand you've never been disciplined by your parents/teachers/bosses who have said "you did this to yourself"?

But to make this more about Star Trek, it's a mischaracterization of Kirk to assume he wouldn't take responsibility for his decisions and own them and would instead blame "God" for sending him to hell for things he, Jim Kirk, did himself. Especially in light of this being the same movie where Kirk rejects Sybok's offer to remove his pain saying, essentially, that he doesn't need to be absolved of the times he turned left when he should have turned right.

 

[Tosk]

Should it have?

Definitely not.

Watching the redone effects footage, I am also thinking good grief, Goldsmith's score for that film was fantastic...

Definitely yes.

 

[Frontis]

How could it be saved? Maybe without god.

 

[fireproof78]

How could it be saved? Maybe without god.

What about the devil or Bob?

 

[Ovation]

What about the devil or Bob?

Bob the Discount Klingon would totally have been a genius choice as General Korrd. I mean, how do we know it wasn’t him? (Would have been better not to recast him, though—one Bruce Maddox incident was enough.)

 

[publiusr]

If it had been a little bit God-Thing, and a little Planet of the Titans, Kirk and Korrd are racing towards “heaven” with Korrd the stand in for the Cygnan threat.

Sybok is a renegade, with Korrd secretly his agent.

No planet of galactic peace, no bridge crew turning on Kirk, just some dignitaries.

The Sybok healing takes place as they walk towards the Demi-Urge, Old Nobodaddy…Sybok says they must be cleansed.

The profound moments happen right before the great disappointment.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Bob the Discount Klingon would totally have been a genius choice as General Korrd. I mean, how do we know it wasn’t him? (Would have been better not to recast him, though—one Bruce Maddox incident was enough.)

Bob got better? His brak'lul saved the day?

 

[Ovation]

Bob got better? His brak'lul saved the day?

Of course. Didn’t you get the memo?

 

[wahwahkits]

I’ve got to admit that I love TFF. Yes it’s heavily flawed but it has a unique charm about it, especially the campfire scenes

 

[urrutiap]

my honest opinion is if this about Star Trek V due to the infamous lava rock creatures that Kirk was supposed to fight or run away from

back then if that stuff was even added in the movie, i dont think it would have improved the movie. maybe just a little but then the rest of the movie would be the same. slow moving

 

[fireproof78]

The flaws of the film would not be improved by VFX.

 

[CoveTom]

The flaws of the film would not be improved by VFX.

Well, the visual effects are one of the flaws of the film. So competently executed effects would improve one of the flaws. But you're right that effects aren't going to fix fundamental problems with the story.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, the visual effects are one of the flaws of the film. So competently executed effects would improve one of the flaws. But you're right that effects aren't going to fix fundamental problems with the story.

The effects are passable. They're a lower tier concern for me. The story and characters and really poor humor that sandbag this film.

 

[CoveTom]

The effects are passable. They're a lower tier concern for me. The story and characters and really poor humor that sandbag this film.

I agree and disagree.

The effects are not horrific. It's not Birdemic. But for a film made in the late 80's, they are noticeably bad, particularly in comparison to what ILM and especially Doug Trumbull and John Dykstra had managed to do on earlier Trek films. That said, the one thing I do like in TFF is Bran Ferren's use of rear projection for the viewscreens and windows. I think that gives a more realistic feel than the constant use of blue/green screen.

The humor I 100% agree on. It was a classic case of a Hollywood studio looking at the success they had with one film (TVH) and trying to jam the same thing into another film (TFF) where it didn't belong. The humor was, in most cases, completely forced and out of place. In TVH, the humor was organic and character-based. In TFF, it felt forced and almost slapstick.

I don't really agree about the characters. I felt they got the characters pretty much right. I don't think the trio of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were ever portrayed on the big screen better than in TFF. And while there were a couple of cringey moments for the supporting characters, I still thought they generally did a decent job with them.

The story is where a good portion of the flaws come from, largely in the fact that there are some major plot holes, as well as the lack of a satisfying ending. Also, I think Shatner, as a new director, didn't spend the film's budget wisely and that hurt the ending as well.

There are some bright spots, though. I think Shatner was actually a pretty good director from a visual standpoint and shot TFF more like a movie than any Trek film since TMP. I love the production design and the cinematography. The score is absolutely beautiful.

I personally put TFF in the category of a good, but flawed, film.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't really agree about the characters. I felt they got the characters pretty much right. I don't think the trio of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were ever portrayed on the big screen better than in TFF. And while there were a couple of cringey moments for the supporting characters, I still thought they generally did a decent job with them.

The biggest problem is that the only way to elevate the characters is by pushing others down. Kirk is the bestest and treated as absolutely necessary, the only one (almost) to have good ideas, and resist Sybok. The secondary characters largely serve as comic relief or are completely mind wiped without much resistance. They are not competent professionals in their own right.

I personally put TFF in the category of a good, but flawed, film.

I think TFF is an average film. The effects are passable, if lacking at times, the story completely flawed, and a mix of solid character moments with random character moments.

 

[CoveTom]

The biggest problem is that the only way to elevate the characters is by pushing others down. Kirk is the bestest and treated as absolutely necessary, the only one (almost) to have good ideas, and resist Sybok. The secondary characters largely serve as comic relief or are completely mind wiped without much resistance. They are not competent professionals in their own right.

I think that's fair, and I think we owe a lot to Nimoy and Kelley in that regard as well. Shatner originally had Spock and McCoy both scripted to betray Kirk as well and follow Sybok, but both actors just refused to play it, arguing that their characters would never betray Kirk. So at least the big three manage to never fall under Sybok's influence, whereas originally Kirk was going to be the only hold-out from the entire crew.

Worth remembering that Scotty never does manage to come under Sybok's spell, is the one who engineers (no pun intended) the prison break, and even after being injured, insists on fighting to get the transporter working, which ultimately saves lives. Given the intense loyalty toward Kirk shown by Scotty throughout TOS, I think his character acts appropriately throughout the film, with the lone exception of the stupid slapstick bonking on the head.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I've found that even a ropey story can be made to work if the cast is sincere and sells it. A story like this needed to be handled more seriously. It was a problematic plot to begin with, so everyone bringing their A game and the script leaving out the slapstick would have probably made this easier for people to take. But no matter what, having the regular supporting cast just turn with the twist of the plot would always come under fire.

"Spock's half-brother turns the crew against Kirk to join his quest for God" may sound intriguing to the production folks, but it's not an easy scenario to do well.

 

[SatrianiRules]

I've found that even a ropey story can be made to work if the cast is sincere and sells it. A story like this needed to be handled more seriously. It was a problematic plot to begin with, so everyone bringing their A game and the script leaving out the slapstick would have probably made this easier for people to take. But no matter what, having the regular supporting cast just turn with the twist of the plot would always come under fire.

"Spock's half-brother turns the crew against Kirk to join his quest for God" may sound intriguing to the production folks, but it's not an easy scenario to do well.

well said, I've always thought that the crew actually (physically) finding "God" was not necessary for the story/plot. It could have been a story about influence/indoctrination and how even a guy like Spock could be tempted and assimilated into a particular group think
and maybe later reveal that it was merely about power influence and coercion.

I think that might have resonated a little better

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm not saying it would have made it better, but I think a better story is at least possible, if they make it the center of the galaxy and find nothing.

One possibility in this context would be that, with no Eden to return to, the characters realize that it's up to them to create a better universe.

A good story would require a lot of other changes , too.

 

[DonIago]

I wonder whether TFF would have been better received if the entity had turned out to be a benevolent Cytherian.

The problem with going to discover "God" is that either you find God, which is a hell of a statement for a Star Trek film in particular to make, or you don't find God...but having God turn out to be just a pretty unimpressive evil alien is perhaps the most disappointing option possible.

The Bajoran Prophets could only be done utilizing a TV show budget and they were far more effective (granted we had more time with them).