Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by GalaxyX, Oct 3, 2013.
With DS9, I wanted better, but was OK with what we got.
I think it works better for us not to see the Occupation. You hear some of the stories about what they went through, then can apply either our history or your imagination (or a combination of the two) to come up with just how bad you think the Occupation was. That makes it far more harrowing than anything the writers (as good as they were on DS9) could have created for our TV screens.
There's an episode in season 2 called "Necessary Evil" that is one of my favorite episodes in all of Star Trek and it should shed some light on the occupation.
I like the way DS9 jumps into an established history with all the players having a place within it. More so than the other Trek's where most of the main players history at the beginning is: Starfleet Academy.
One thing I really think makes DS9 stand out among Treks is that we get to see the experience of living in the Trekverse from entities other than the Federation. We get to see that some races are ruthlessly exploited (Bajorans), that humans can behave badly when taken away from their comforts, and some races can not share Federation values and still be a positive force (Ferengi). We also get to see interesting perspectives on the Federation from outsiders (Quark, Odo, Garak).
Alright, so I've watched up to the second season ep "Second Sight".
My dad is loving Quark and the Ferengi. Everytime he wants to watch now, he says "Let's see what Quark is up to now"
In general I think the show is pretty good. Sisko is not as loudmouth oafy as he was at first. I actually feel bad for Kira. She's supposed to be this "tough as nails" female officer, and she got the shit kicked out of her by the gf of that Trill guy who wanted to steal Jadzia's symbiote, ouch! I take back everything I said about her being a "butch angry pms'ing bitch"
So far, Quark and Odo are carrying the show IMO, those are the two most fun characters to watch. My dad calls Morn "The Cactus". I tell him I think he looks more like a turtle.
Do I think it's stellar writing light years ahead of TNG? hmm, nah I wouldn't go that far. It's certainly different, and it has the huge advantage of being able to do a story arc, something TNG could have benefited from (which it did with some very weak character arcs, like Ensign Ro, etc)
I like Jake and the fact that he's just a regular kid. Not that I ever hated Wesley, I always knew it was the writing that ruined his character, and only in the first 2-3 seasons, he did get better written in later seasons.
From past viewings I felt DS9 got very soap operaish in the later seasons. I haven't seen it this time around to the same extent, but I guess I'll see when I get to the later seasons again.
My dad had an interesting question for me. Why do the Bajorans worship the Prophets?
In every major religion, the people worship a deity because the deity promises them something, some type of blissful afterlife, or even great prosperity in the current life.
So what exactly do the Prophets offer the Bajorans? So far I haven't seen The Prophets do anything other than give visions thru their orbs. Is this expanded on later in the series?
The Bajorans believe that the Prophets guide and protect them through life and if i'm remembering correctly the Bajorans also believe that when they die they will join the Prophets. And I agree with you about Jake, one of the best decisions the writers made was simply making Jake a real kid.
I think there's a marked improvement in quality in the second half of season 2. Episodes like Whispers, Blood Oath, The Wire, Crossover and The Jem'Hadar are among my favourites of that season.
Stick with it. DS9 gets better with age and really takes off in Season 3.
The only actors that were any good in DS9 from the start were Armin Shimmerman (Quark), Rene Auberjonois (Odo), Coin Meeny (Miles Obrien) and Andrew Robinson (Garak).
The quality of acting from the others almost made me quit watching the series.
But it's trek, so I endure. (as we have done many many times over the years WRT to our trek actors)
Avery Brooks was completely misscast. I more than support casting an Afican American for the part, but for gods sake choose one that can act. He's the only actor in trek that each time I watch the series I'm rooting for him to improve on the acting side. Incapable of showing any emotion other than anger. To cast someone as limited as he was with his acting as the centerpiece of the show was a mistake. Lucky for the series and him that DS9 really didn't "center" on the Captain.
Nana Visitor (as stated many times in this thread) just didn't get it. Much like Roxanne overacted playing B'elanna, Nana did the same with Kyra. She improved drastically as the seasons unfolded.
Alexander Siddig, while seemingly being the "heart throb" for the gals watching this series, was off the charts horrible. If it wasn't for his relationship with Garak and later Miles, they could have deleted him.
Terry Farrell was OK, but she really didn't take off until the character drops the "perfect" vale they had over her in the beginning.
When half your main group isn't very good, it makes for some tough watching.
But DS9 is all about the stories and relationships and they also had the benifit of reusing some of the franchises greatest reocurring characters.
ENJOY... and don't jump ship!!
Well, I think it works with Bashir (the OP about him chasing Dax). He's so totally full of himself I think he cannot fathom the idea of a woman not wanting him.
I agree about Sisko, and I HATE it when he starts shouting. The overacting and the overenunciating just kill it for me and he's my least favorite captain for this reason. It's like he has his "contemplative" face when he's just sitting around thinking, and then his "angry" face, and that's it for his acting.
Kira is annoying, yes.
I liked Dax.
But I think probably the best parts, for me, were things involving pretty much any Cardassians (even the minor characters), Odo, some of the Quark and other Ferengi stuff, and Weyoun.
That, and after a few seasons, it really hit its stride and became more enjoyable overall.
That's how I felt after watching DS9, and I grew up watching TNG in its original airing and so it has nostalgic value for me. But sometimes, I go back and watch some of TNG and it just feels stale, yeah.(Don't get me wrong, there are great TNG episodes, but I think that DS9 and TOS are my favorites because I like some of the characters so much.)
I was talking to somebody about DS9 the other day in real life, and he complained about how dark and claustrophobic it all was. I said that's why it's my favorite!
I wasn't crazy about the starfleet members on ds9, for sure, but I think the non-starfleet characters make up for it. Of course, being Star Trek, I can understand if people think if a lot of the starfleet people are crap, then the series must be crap... Most of my favorite episodes involved non-main characters, though.
The worst thing ever was some of the mirror universe crap. Boy do I hate mirror-Bashir.
Alright, I thought I would update this thread. I've been posting in the other DS9 thread comments I should be making here.
I'm up to the 3rd episode of season 4 (Hippocratic Oath?)
The series still feels disjointed. It's trying to be serialized, while not really concentrating too much on the main arc yet.
Shit I didn't remember the whole thing about the Klingons wanting to attack Cardassia. Where the heck did that come from?
This whole time the entire series has painted the Cardassians as requiring a very severe ass kicking, and they still haven't gotten one. Although the Klingons wanting to attack it came out of left field, it would have been interesting. I'm honestly not sure where this angle is going to go. I know the Klingons side with the Federation later on, and Martok becomes a friend of all on DS9, so I know it will be resolved, I just don't remember how.
As for characters.
Sisko: Still his old creepy self. I liked the goatee, but do not like the shaved head. He hasn't really improved acting wise. I think Jake is a better character and compensates in scenes where they are together.
Bashir: I still like his character, but he's not my favourite anymore. One of the reasons he was my favourite originally was because of the episode where he falls in love with that girl that he healed (the genetically enhanced girl) and she didn't love him back but felt she owed him that love even if forced. Freaking awesome episode I can't wait to watch again. So far Bashir is bland, and while he's not ugly, I can't see him being a heartthrob
Kira: Sadly, the same as Sisko. Still superficially bitchy with no layers. It's just "Angry Kira" 24/7
Jadzia: Funny that in her episodes, at least some effort was made to explain to us, the audience, why she is such a smug bitch. I get, at least superficially, that she is supposed to have the lifetime experiences of 8 previous hosts in her memory. The actress just doesn't have the chops to portray that in any subtle way. She just comes across as "I'm hotter and I'm smarter than all of you". For that, her character grates me the most!! Arghhh!! I won't miss her when she dies finally.
Quark and Odo are still carrying the show. Excellent actors, particularly Quark, who does the "thief with a heart" particularly well. Odo does the "hard ass with a soft spot" pretty good too. His whole shape shifting ability so far has been completely useless. Enemy shape shifters are running circles around him, and episodes like "Crossover" have shown how easy it is to kill him. He's as vulnerable as any solid.
I don't hate Garak as much. I remember despising him for torturing Odo. Now I got to see that he hated doing it and only did it for his desperation to get back into his "Clique" with Cardassia.
Still, he desperately needs someone to beat the fuck out of him, with all this secrecy. I would have kicked him in the balls already.
I do enjoy the little verbal skirmishes he has with Dukat when they are both on screen. There are some pretty delicious moments there.
Like I said in the other thread though, when your best characters are all bad guys, hmmm...seems to be that's kind of a flawed way to go about writing a show. I wish there were some truly good characters that I could root for.
Yup, I'm one of the ones who wanted to have some good Starfleet personel to look up to.
I used to think the series was crap. Now in my more mature days (I hope) I'm seeing it in a new eye.
I'm not a fan of the DS9 mirror U at all (aside from the first episode)
I hated it at first too. Now its my fav. Give it time
Believe it or not, for me DS9 was all downhill after "Emissary."
Alright, up to the end of season 5. I just finished watching "Business as usual".
Some general comments: So far I don't think DS9 is better than TNG. I think they both excel at the type of stories they are trying to tell. TNG sticks with high concept sci-fi (for the most part) and sometimes fails miserably. But man, when it succeeds, it succeeds in spades . The good TNG episodes are stellar TV in general, and rival any other show's "good" episodes.
DS9 leaves the sci-fi portion simply as a background to what the show really is about: drama, and the characterization of the people in the series. On that, sometimes it succeeds greatly (Quark) and sometimes fails miserably (Jadzia), with characters like Sisko and Kira being somewhere in the middle?
The series is a lot more disjointed than I remember. I think it's because they had to do a lot of filler episodes to get 26 episodes per season, and budget restraints required some episodes to be low budget in nature so that the "meat" episodes had a higher budget to work with.
I think DS9 works well as a compliment to TNG, just as TNG works well as a compliment to TOS.
For that to work, you have to really really have an open mind about certain things. For example, a TNGite like myself was indoctrinated that money and currency was a thing of the past in the Federation.
But outside the Federation currency is still alive and well, and Starfleet personal even dabble in it here and there. This is heresy to someone who's been fed a steady diet of TNG.
With a bit of maturity though, this logic inconsistency can be overlooked, and the show becomes much easier to enjoy. I think the Ferengi are really well done on a comedic level, and it's the first time I actually howl out loud laughing sometimes at the Ferengi antics.
What do you define as a "filler" episode? Some of DS9's finest moments were standalone stories, and often they were money-saving shows too.
Alright, a couple of episodes I consider to be filler, and not particularly good filler:
Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places
Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
A Simple Investigation
I haven't finished the season yet so I'm sure there's more.
I continue to say: Give me the first 3 series, any episode, and I am a satisfied fan. They were all original shows that contrasted each other in storytelling, and gave me something to consider that I could apply to my life. Star Trek built a rich tapestry through these series that was able to sustain Voyager and Enterprise for a combined 11 years without adding anything worth noting. Yes, I call the two newest series "pop culture Trek" and I find them superfluous. But those first 3 series. Wow. Thoughtful, original, entertaining storytelling.
The Pah'Wraiths are present in The Assignment and it fits into the character-building episodes of the 5th season. Doctor Bashir, I Presume gives Alexander Sidding something to do with his character and soon it will tie into the main storyline. A Simple Investigation is Odo's first love affair as a human. It tests the limits of the order of his universe.
You just named 4 character-building episodes I wouldn't do without.
Separate names with a comma.