Constitution Class Ships Seem To Be Everywhere

[BK613]

Right. It's a civilian publication that's used as an intelligence source by world leaders and navies around the world, and has been since the nineteenth century, which is why it deserves respect. Let's not diminish it too much...

Oh, no diminishing intended. The civilian comment simply means that the publishers are on the outside looking in.

Fun fact though, Fighting Ships started off as a miniature gaming reference that became popular in naval circles, not a a straight up academic naval reference.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The notion that the a model of the Enterprise is meant to represent a different class of ship from the Enterprise is the most astounding piece of fan-overthinking that I've ever encountered in these parts.

 

[MAGolding]

What does Kirk say in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"?

CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy
KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

Note that Kirk doesn't say there are only 12 other ships not including the the Enterprise like it in the fleet, nor does he say that there are only 12 like it including the Enterprise.

Thus Kirk doesn't say clearly whether there are 12 or 13 such ships including the Enterprise itself.

KIrk also doesn't say there are only 12 ships of the same class as the Enterprise. He just says "Like it".

Kirk doesn't say there are 12 "Very, very, very similar to it" or 12 "vaguely similar to it". He just says "like it" leaving it unspecified how much like it a ship has to be to count as "like it" in Kirk's eyes.

Possibly the Federation has hundreds of space warships as powerful as the Enterprise in their defense fleets, and hundreds of science vessels with labs like the the Enterprise has, but only a dozen ships which, like the Enterprise, are equipped with weapons as powerful as any war ship and science labs as numerous and well starffed as any science vessel.

What does Commodore Stone say in "Court Martial"?

STONE: Stop recording. Now, look, Jim. Not one man in a million could do what you and I have done. Command a starship. A hundred decisions a day, hundreds of lives staked on you making every one of them right. You're played out, Jim. Exhausted.

In Earth history, many nations have had less than one million times as many people as they had top of the line war ships.with captains. In real life a lot more than one man in a million can command a major warship.

So presumably Stone's starships are not Starfeet defense ships, no matter how powerful the defense ships might be. Stone says:

A hundred decisions a day, hundreds of lives staked on you making every one of them right.

Real ife commanders of major warships don't have to make a hundred life or death decisions every day.,not in times of peace. And even during war they might not have to make more than one or two life ordeath decisions every day.

But an exploring ship out on the unknown fronteris could face dangers of various types much more often than a war ship in the defense fleet that usually stays in a central location in the space realm until needed.

So Stone seems to restrict starships to exploring ships.

In "The Deadly Years" Commodore Stocker wants to reach Starbase 10 with its labs to find a cure for the aging of KIrk & co., but Kirk says the Enterprise has labs, and they end up finding a cure, and Stocker admits there is nothing a starbase can do that a starship can't do - with the right commander.

In "Bread and Circuses":

CLAUDIUS: Admit it. You find these games frightening, revolting.
KIRK: Proconsul, in some parts of the galaxy I have seen forms of entertainment that makes this look like a folk dance.
CLAUDIUS: Certain this isn't different, Captain? Those are your men dying, not strangers.
KIRK: I've had to select men to die before so that others could be saved.
CLAUDIUS: You're a clever liar, Captain Kirk. Merikus was a spaceship captain. I've observed him thoroughly. Your species has no such strength.
MERIK: He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew. I tried for such a command.

Clearly Merik considers starships to be very special, perhaps much more so than the typicat Starfleet vessel.

In "The Doomsday Machine":

PALMER: Sir, I'm picking up a ship's disaster beacon.
KIRK: Try to raise it, Lieutenant.
SPOCK: I have it on the sensors, Captain. By configuration, a starship stopped in space. She appears to be drifting.

So Spock says that the ship detected by the sensors has the configuration of a starship. Thus it seems logical that all starships have the same configureation, and that other shis p do not have that configuration.

So it is possible that all starships have a saucer shaped primary hull, a rougly cylindrical engineering hull, and two cylinddrial nacelles, with three struts joining the parts together. And it is posible that there are several different classes of starships with variations on that basic design.

And I point out that using models and clips of the Enterprise to represent other starships might be a cost saving mesaure and that those starships might not have actually looked as much like the Enterprise as they were shown to look.

The NCC-1701 is described as a starshp class vessel in its dedication plaque on the bridge. And a coupld of diagrams mention the Constitution class. But I don't know if anyone can read those images well enough to see the names of the ship classes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I've always found it too coincidental that throughout the run of the show whenever the Enterprise encountered another Starfleet ship it was always of it's own class.

The Antares was not Constitution class.

The Astral Queen was not Constitution class. Is it a ship in Starfleet? Maybe, maybe not. Kirk knows the Captain personally.

It's unknown what the class of the USS Carolina was, not actually encountered but in the area. It seemed to be vulnerable enough to need assistance from a Constitution class starship, so presumably it was a lesser class.

In TOS-R, the Medusan vessel has Federation warp nacelles, and was not Constitution class.

Was the Aurora Starfleet? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Maurice]

I was just looking at the story outlines and scripts for these appearances and it's pretty obvious every time they reference a ship like the Enterprise they write "star ship" or "starship".

Heck, look at this from Roddenberry's first draft of the 2nd pilot version of the Omega Glory.



And here from "The Planet Eater".


And all the names but Defiant line up with the starships list batted around the production offices and cited in TMOST (The Making of Star Trek).

They were meant to be ships like the Enterprise, not different classes.

 

[Timo]

In the production sense, naturally, since they could afford nothing else.

But the Archon was also a "starship", and obviously she wasn't of the same class, as her dramatic role was that of a century-old predecessor. (The other old-timers, the USS Valiant and the Horizon, were not specified as starships, but again they sure weren't intended to be sister ships to Kirk's.) So the writers were not quite limiting themselves to a single class at a deep conceptual level, but merely bowing to the realities of production.

Enter TAS and all bets are off, for unseen things like the Ariel, or the Potemkin of "Pirates of Orion" if we assume she's a replacement to the infamously fragile TOS sisterhood of Enterprise clones, rather than the TOS original.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[STEPhon IT]

Both TOS itself (even if mostly in unvoiced backstory) and later Trek referring to TOS seem to establish the opposite: in the days of Kirk, and already in those of Pike, a Constitution was a has-been, a veteran design from way back, and apparently only persisting thanks to truly incessant refitting. This refitting apparently not extending to the warp engines, which (outside of a few support types from TAS) were the only ones in the whole Fleet that still looked Archer-era...

All the more credit to Kirk, and Pike, for achieving what they did, then.

Bullshit. From my love and admiration of the Enterprise, STARSHIP CLASS facts from the TV series, I have never seen or heard such disrespect from my heroes that the ship was a has been. Maybe from villains, and Kewl-Aid drinking StarTrek fans who think everything but TOS is better because the current showrunners imply so, but that's their design was to show disrespect, but there's nothing wrong with a vessel, even a state of the art one, to have a sense of history. Upgrades are part of the game for extended space travel; there are always unseen, encountered anomalies where the current crew has to learn from, adjust and make changes. I was never the connect the dots viewer especially when the so-called prequel designs don't even try to honor or represent a hypothetical design of what the Enterprise should look like. That pile of dog shit DISCO has represented as the Starship Enterprise is such a slap in the face to real Star Trek fans intelligence, I can't believe some fans are going through hoops trying so hilariously to make it work in their small continuity brain cells. NX-01 is just a terrible to me.

So no, I don't see your back handed compliment to what Kirk, and Pike allegedly achieved. The Starship Class and its brethren vessels such as the U.S.S. Enterprise was the greatest, most iconic ship ever seen and its legacy has presented how incredible those vessels endeavored and endured the mysteries of space.

 

[Dukhat]

Agreed. There’s absolutely no indication in TOS that the Enterprise and the Constitution class in general were viewed as old or outdated. Very much the opposite, actually.

 

[Admiral2]

Both TOS itself (even if mostly in unvoiced backstory) and later Trek referring to TOS seem to establish the opposite: in the days of Kirk, and already in those of Pike, a Constitution was a has-been, a veteran design from way back, and apparently only persisting thanks to truly incessant refitting.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The USS Nimitz, the first of its carrier class, was commissioned in 1975 and is still in active service. The planes she first carried were different from the more advanced ones she carries now, and she's capable of carrying those planes because of successive technology upgrades between then and now, yet she's still a frontline unit and one of America's "Big Sticks." Why? Incessant refitting.

All carriers go through overhaul periods to extend their service lives, because it's cheaper to do that to ships already built than to build whole new units. Here's the thing: The refits serve their purpose, which is to keep the largest capital ships ever built ready for duty.

The notion that Enterprise has been refit several times doesn't make her a has-been or that she's useless. She'd just be old. Sometimes old ships still work.

This refitting apparently not extending to the warp engines, which (outside of a few support types from TAS) were the only ones in the whole Fleet that still looked Archer-era...

The fastest NX-01's "Warp 5" engines ever achieved in canon was Warp 4.5. NCC-1701's engines propelled her twice as fast at least once. Just because the engines look like Archer's doesn't mean there wasn't a technology upgrade.

All the more credit to Kirk, and Pike, for achieving what they did, then.

All due respect, I'd say Pike and Kirk achieved what they did thanks to their ship, not in spite of her.

 

[fireproof78]

That pile of dog shit DISCO has represented as the Starship Enterprise is such a slap in the face to real Star Trek fans intelligence,

I wear my fake fan badge as a source of honor then.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The fastest NX-01's "Warp 5" engines ever achieved in canon was Warp 4.5.

For extended periods, that's true. However...

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In Fallen Hero, they do reach Warp 5 briefly.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That pile of dog shit DISCO has represented as the Starship Enterprise is such a slap in the face to real Star Trek fans intelligence,

YMMV, but IMO the Discoprise looks a lot more like an older version of movie version (which fits better with the Berman-era designs), and also fits nicely as an intermediate between the NX and the refit, neither of which is the case with the classic models.

 

[Noname Given]

The fastest NX-01's "Warp 5" engines ever achieved in canon was Warp 4.5. NCC-1701's engines propelled her twice as fast at least once. Just because the engines look like Archer's doesn't mean there wasn't a technology upgrade...

Actually in canon by the 4th season of Enterprise, both ships of the NX class, could actually maintain warp 5 and got to Warp 5.2.

(For me, TOS will always be first and foremost my favorite. That said I did enjoy Enterprise too. )

 

[Kor]

...
Also, doesn't the plaque on the bridge say "Starship Class"?
...

Yes, that is correct. But I'm having trouble finding any screencaps where the lettering is clearly legible to us as the viewing audience. The gold-on-gold lettering tends to be rather hard to make out:
https://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0744.jpg

Kor

 

[Admiral2]

Actually in canon by the 4th season of Enterprise, both ships of the NX class, could actually maintain warp 5 and got to Warp 5.2.

(For me, TOS will always be first and foremost my favorite. That said I did enjoy Enterprise too. )

I'll take your word for it. I bailed on ENT after the first few episodes of season 4. Seasons 1 and 2 are my favorites.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Agreed. There’s absolutely no indication in TOS that the Enterprise and the Constitution class in general were viewed as old or outdated. Very much the opposite, actually.

The Making of Star Trek - Chapter 3: Mission And Men page 203, 5th paragraph . . .

"The Enterprise-class Starships have been in existence about forty years now and are capable of exploring the uncharted remainder of the galaxy."

The Making of Star Trek was published between the second and third seasons, which, if you want, can be considered between the second and third year of the five year mission; if the five year mission ran from 2265 to 2270

If the Enterprise was approximently 40 years old when Kirk took command, it would have to have been launched and commissioned sometime between 2225 and 2230.

Everyone keeps mentioning Nimitz, Kitty Hawk, Kennedy and Enterprise carriers. I think a better analogy would be the Essex-class carriers of World War II.

The first batch of Essex carriers commisioned during the war were 'short-hulls'; the second batch, completed and commissioned after the war ended were 'long-hulls'. Externally there was little difference except for additional anti-aircraft weapons.

The Oriskany was completed post-war to an SCB-27A design, which was then implemented with Essex, Yorktown, Hornet, Randolph, Wasp, Bennington, Keasarge and Lake Champlain. These vessels were further modernized to include an enclosed hurricane bow, angled flight deck and steam catapults.

The Antietam was the first Essex carrier to receive the angled flight deck and spent the remainder of her service life as a training carrier.

The Boxer, Leyte, Princeton, Tarawa, Valley Forge, and Phillipine Sea did not receive any modifications and wer employed in various functions such as amphibious assult vessels.

The Essex carriers post-war became the workhorses of the US Navy, often in support roles to the more modern Forrestal (Forrestal, Saratoga, Ranger, Independence), Improved Forrestal (Kitty Hawk, Constellation, American), Kennedy (Improved Forrestal sub-class), Enterprise and Nimitz classes.

What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the Enterprise of Kirk's era was probably a completely different vessel externally and internally than the one that was first launched and commisioned forty years earlier.

 

[fireproof78]

Engineers like to change things.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Engineers like to change things.

Almost as much as showrunners. Discovery season 2 canonizes 2245 as the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701's launch year.

 

[Noname Given]

Almost as much as showrunners. Discovery season 2 canonizes 2245 as the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701's launch year.

A number of the novels did too, and the various shows and films have been screen canonizing elements from them since TAS.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Almost as much as showrunners. Discovery season 2 canonizes 2245 as the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701's launch year.

"Canon" from Discovery doesn't mean sh-- to me, but I do think highly of the 1993 book Star Trek Chronology, which also says 2245. That book is about as official as unaired material can be. I think the franchise has utilized it many times to help keep things straight.