Constitution class Engineering

[Timo]

...the intent of what that curved corridor represented in the context of the show was clearly supposed to be in the primary hull. People just simply didn't over-think stuff like this back then like we do now.

Well, assigning any sort of "intent" to this sounds very much like overthinking. They had a studio, they had a set, and they made use of it. Engineering was added to the principal set because it was needed, not because it was supposed to lie opposite Sickbay or next to Transporter Room or anything.

In "The Alternative Factor" we get to see an entirely different set, a set that sustains damage from Lazarus' sabotage. The personnel there explicitly refer to their station as "Engineering", yet the set is completely different from the large set referred to as "Engine Room". Could this be part of the saucer's impulse engine room? Could it be most, or even all of the saucer's impulse engine room?

It could be anything. But the episode uses it for a specific task: nursing the dilithium crystals back to health. The crystals are clearly just visiting - they are doing nothing but recovering, as nobody really notices when they are stolen.

Engineering in many episodes is defined as a vast maze of facilities. Engineering in general technobabble is an entire hull! Arguing about where the phone booth we actually see should go and whether a single duplicate exists elsewhere is rather petty, when the ship probably has two dozen rooms of that general appearance, dedicated to various functions. Heck, the likeliest scenario has the engineering hull looking much like a brewery, with just tiny sections separated by actual walls into man-tended control booths, explaining why there is zero vastness in evidence when the heroes actually enter this vast hull.

Isn't that undercut going to make a large engine room inside the saucer impossible

Yup - which is why two main approaches have been made by just about every fan trying to fit the sets within the model. Either the engine room is in fact just as small as shown (thus fitting in the narrow sector where the primary-to-secondary-hull connector neck offers extra space), meaning the thingamabob behind the grille is not "forced perspective" but "really" short and acutely narrowing, and the "fourth wall" is right where the picture frame allows it to be, or preferably even closer; or then the ship is a bit bigger than we think, and the undercut only mars the third full-width deck in the saucer.

I think this misses the point of separation - that either part can be a lifeboat, depending on the circumstances of the disaster. Some duplication of resources then would definitely be desirable!

Here we have to wonder why such a large chunk of the ship would be needed for lifeboating. If the minimum survivable size is half a starship, chances of survival must be really slim: there is only one boat available in any scenario!

We often look at separating the primary hull from the secondary hull. But I think there is another option here. That is jettisoning the nacelles by themselves. This would leave you with the "main section" (primary and secondary hulls).

Indeed, Kirk jumps directly from nacelle jettison to escaping with the undefined "main section" (which could be the saucer, the engineering hull, both together, or something smaller than either of those). Does he skip steps there or not? He is giving a list that supposedly covers everything, including the unthinkable. He probably wouldn't have time or patience to give a complete list, and Scotty ought to know this stuff already anyway - so Kirk would be motivated to enter the most drastic measure as the last item in the list. But it's still quite possible that nacelle jettison is the same thing as escaping with the main section, and that no further chopping up of the ship is possible even in theory: no means for severing the neck!

If your dangerous stuff is out there in the nacelles why ditch your secondary hull?

We know that there is dangerous stuff in a single central location. "That Which Survives" describes something very much akin to a warp core ejection, in a location that makes no effort to present itself as a nacelle interior. Then again, a "single location" can also be in a nacelle, as in "One of Our Planets Is Missing" where the engines can be kickstarted by inserting antimatter directly into just one of the nacelles.

But as stated, "The Apple" didn't involve danger as such, only the wrigglings of the ship in an inescapable grip. The engines threatening to blow up was a feature of "The Savage Curtain", and the remedy there is "disengage nacelles, jettison if possible". Supposedly jettison nacelles, then (although "jettison" could also be the TOS equivalent to "separate", immediately understood to mean saucer separation, i.e. jettisoning of all the rest). Make of that what you will, but it does suggest that antimatter in danger of boiling over is a problem specific to the nacelles. In this particular adventure, that is.

regarding DOTD, we are told that the Klingons occupy Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7. Going by MJ's cutaway sketch, Deck 5 is the widest deck; plenty of room horizontally for the crew to be trapped behind pressure doors!

Moreover, it shows that the division of the ship isn't as simplistic as "heroes above, villains below": Klingons fail to control all of a deck that is below a deck they do control in its entirety!

Clearly, separating 38+38 people from 400 cannot be done by defining entire decks as either go or no go. And (*) would no doubt have set up a maximally varied playground, choosing a bit from this deck, a bit from that.

In the end, then, we cannot easily argue that the heroes could not have reached a Main Engineering located down on Deck 16 or whatnot.

OTOH, we can easily argue that neither Deck 6 nor starboard Deck 7 is the location of Scotty's engine room - the heroes first declared those as Klingon conquests, and then Scotty (in full communications with the heroes who had made this declaration) got surprised by Klingons at Engineering!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Incidentally, DOTD is the only episode where we get as close to a cross-section of the Enterprise in TOS as we ever do, namely when Kang and his crew examine the "technical specifications" of the ship itself:

The red section may well indicate those parts of the Enterprise which the (*) has not closed off yet - and there's a lovely bit of the Engineering Hull highlighted as such!

Location of TOS Engine Room solved, perhaps? Naaah! ;-)

 

[Timo]

The red section may well indicate those parts of the Enterprise which the (*) has not closed off yet

Or then white unambiguously marks those parts it has locked up, while red contains the parts accessible to the heroes but also a lot of inaccessible space. We know Bridge is red and in hero hands, but way too much of the rest of the ship is marked in red... (*) need not have effected his lockup along the edges of existing pressure compartments, so this map is a less than perfect medium for showing the situation, but the best Kang has.

The side and top views show different sections marked in red. What does it mean that the widest part of the saucer is white in one view and red in another? That "Klingons control half of Deck Seven"? (But Spock specifically said starboard half...) That there is red past the pylon roots in top view but not in side view? It's very difficult to interpret the two views as showing the same status for the compartments.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Sure you could have several Engineering rooms for different functions, primary and secondary. But how much sense does it make to have access to the Dilithium crystals and antimatter conduits in the Engineering hull? More than the saucer, assuming Dilithium is meditating the m/am reactions.

 

[137th Gebirg]

They may not be dilithium, or dilithium that can be used for different purposes other than regulating the M/AM reaction. The TMP refit had the intermix chamber go all the way up to the top, ending with the "impulse deflection crystal", whatever that is. Maybe it's a kind of dilithium crystal that redirects intermix energy into the impulse drive when the "mains are online" and switches over to nuclear fusion when the mains are off or the neck is severed. Very little is known about how this stuff worked in the 23rd century. I don't think the writers really bothered to flesh it out all that much.

 

[Mytran]

Maybe not fleshed out in detail, but I think they had a reasonable idea of the engineering layout, since the TOS-E was based on the aviation model of design; the engines generate thrust and are also tapped to provide power for the rest of the plane/ship's systems. Several episodes indicate that the crystals are key in that power conversion procedure. The actual mixing of matter and antimatter requires no crystal to mediate the reaction - which makes sense, since the two components annihilate one another with very little assistance! Since the reaction takes place within the nacelles themselves, the resulting energy is easily diverted directly into the warp field generators, with no fancy plasma conduits required. It makes for less neon tubes lighting up in the Engine Room, but a perfectly efficient system nonetheless

Having said all that, it does make sense for the crystals to be located near the pylons, since that is where the energy will be syphoned off from the main engines. However, that is not to say that the warp drive could not be controlled from an engineering console in the saucer, since all of the controls are remote anyway. This is why I think that both the Season One Engine Room and the Season Two version both exist simultaneously on board the Enterprise - they're simply at different locations, mostly doing different jobs.

The red section may well indicate those parts of the Enterprise which the (*) has not closed off yet

...
It's very difficult to interpret the two views as showing the same status for the compartments.

Indeed - it's more likely the front page of the e-book that's on the tape. But I still like it!

We know that there is dangerous stuff in a single central location. "That Which Survives" describes something very much akin to a warp core ejection, in a location that makes no effort to present itself as a nacelle interior.

Actually, we know nothing of the sort. Scott's dialogue with Watkins in TWS might indicate a single, central location (in complete contrast to all prior episodes which point towards the reactors being in the nacelles) but it could just as easily indicate a problem with a single nacelle (AKA engine pod). Common sense would suggest that if one nacelle is operating at a slightly higher speed then the other would match it to compensate, so all the avatar of Losira needs to do is sabotage the integreator on one of them - and all Scott needs to do it fix that one in order to save the day. Heck, he even makes reference to the "pod jettison system" when talking to the Bridge! It also makes the situation much more tense, since they are dealing with the loss of half the ship's propulsive power, rather than a few barrels of antimatter fuel. One would be a lot easier to replace than the other, methinks...

As for depicting the interior of a nacelle, I'd say that the cramped, magnetic field-ridden interior he's crawling through is exactly what we'd expect to find - given the circumstances, that is. In the TAS episode the engines were barely working, so access to the interior was much safer.

 

[Wingsley]

That computer map of the Enterprise doesn't jibe with the spoken content of the episode.

SPOCK: Scans indicate that our forces and those of the Klingons are exactly equal at thirty eight each. The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.

This quote is from the scene immediately after we see Scott discover a Claymore in the ship's armory.

The episode makes it sound like the Klingons captured (almost) two key decks of the ship, with only 38 Enterprise personnel on decks 1 through 5; the remainder of the Enterprise crew would presumably be trapped either below Deck 7 or from port Deck 7 on down.

None of this makes any sense. If the Klingons had Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7 and the portside of 7 and sections below were sealed off, how could the Klingons advance? Why would there be only 38 Enterprise crew on duty on the upper decks? That's an awful lot of empty ship!

And if intercoms and communicators were still functional (they clearly were), why couldn't the remaining 392 Enterprise crew jettison the nacelles, or otherwise regain control of the ship? Why would phase torches be their only avenue? They would control from Deck 8 downward, would they not?

The computer map suggests that the entire saucer section, plus a good chunk of the secondary hull, is an active battlefield. That doesn't leave much room for the remaining 392 "trapped" crew, not does it make sense they would all be crammed in that limited space when the bulkheads closed.

But let's assume, for sake of argument, that the engine room Kang captured was the warp drive engine room in the secondary hull. (It would be the one that's active when the ship is at warp, after all; it would not do any good to capture an impulse engine room.) If so, Kang's prize would be a victory for both the Klingons and the pinwheel entity. The Klingons want to deprive "all sections but our own" of power, and the entity wants to keep Kirk and Spock off balance long enough to get the ship out of the Galaxy before the engines fail. That part makes sense.

 

[Shark]

To answer to O.P. succinctly; the engines are positioned away from the hull for a reason. (Beyond aesthetics) The engineers in TMP wore safety suits for a reason. It stands to reason that the location of Engineering would be as far away from crew habitation areas as possible. Thus, the secondary hull. I would imagine the same is true for ships without secondary hulls.

 

[MantaBase]

Sure you could have several Engineering rooms for different functions, primary and secondary. But how much sense does it make to have access to the Dilithium crystals and antimatter conduits in the Engineering hull? More than the saucer, assuming Dilithium is meditating the m/am reactions.

Access is important and you would want them located by the pylons. But access is not control. That can happen any place. So the Primary Hull Engineering section could certainly be "main engineering" - or "main" might stand for the engineering deck on the secondary hull which does far more than propulsion - like making repair parts. After all, how often do you need to open up the chamber and align the crystal? Is main engineering in a nuclear plant located under the reactor? - if physical interaction is not required then engineering could be done from anyplace - including the bridge.

The FJ plans are rather robust. Three bridges, two engineering sections, more than enough quarters, a saucer separation point, shuttle hangar that can accommodate a huge shuttle or material acquisition - medical in both hulls IIRC. He really did think it out. Except for infrastructure.

 

[MantaBase]

To answer to O.P. succinctly; the engines are positioned away from the hull for a reason. (Beyond aesthetics) The engineers in TMP wore safety suits for a reason. It stands to reason that the location of Engineering would be as far away from crew habitation areas as possible. Thus, the secondary hull. I would imagine the same is true for ships without secondary hulls.

You are correct that the nacelles are the "hot parts" and on pylons for a reason (IMO of course, it's a fiction show) - but the location of engineering control doesn't have to have any relation to the nacelles. In fact, cargo would be best to put nearest to it. Only in extreme circumstances does anyone need to go to the "hot zone". From what I can tell, there is not habitable space in the nacelles - they are meant to be operated remotely. Sure - there is a sort of central area near the pylons that has engineering and may house some other "hot stuff", but it could be minimally manned and the main engineering work done in the primary hull engineering section as laid out by FJ.

 

[Timo]

None of this makes any sense. If the Klingons had Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7 and the portside of 7 and sections below were sealed off, how could the Klingons advance? Why would there be only 38 Enterprise crew on duty on the upper decks? That's an awful lot of empty ship!

I don't see any problem there. "Klingons control X" is no indication that they would be locked to X and unable to reach beyond X; it is simply a measure of where the Klingons are and what they control with the strength of their arms. "Heroes have access to A through B" is no indication they have no access elsewhere. And nothing in the dialogue suggests the decks where the heroes roam would be empty of trapped coworkers. Clearly to the contrary, the work crews toil with breaching doors (that is, horizontal obstacles) that keep them from joining with the trapped four hundred - even if offhand mention is also made of the floors having become impermeable to breaching.

That Klingons would control all of Deck 6 would already establish that they have cut the ship in half. The Klingons, not (*). But with just 38 of them, their control is tenuous. Scotty can and will join the rest of the heroes, yet this is no proof he was originally above Deck 6 - it is merely proof that he triumphed in conflict with Klingons sufficiently to get him past them. And we did see him clash with the Klingons.

The dialogue in "Day of the Dove" may not have been carefully thought out, but the end result shows that there was no need for such undue attention - it works just fine the way it is. And we should be thankful it's not more detailed than that, or there would be problems!

the engines are positioned away from the hull for a reason

But the fact remains that they are not! That is, they are positioned right next to the hull, through major engineering effort where long and vulnerable-looking pylons are utilized to make sure the nacelles almost touch the main hull.

The engineers in TMP wore safety suits for a reason

But again the fact remains that they did not! That is, there were always people carelessly in shirtsleeves there, mixed with the coveralls folks.

Parts of the engines may be harmful to the general public. Overall, the machinery appears benign, and little effort is made to steer clear of it (say, the Vulcan shuttle doesn't steer particularly clear of the nacelles when delivering Spock!).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe SOT but do we know Dilithium is used to mediate the m/am reactions in TOS?

 

[137th Gebirg]

No, in fact, there has been dialog implying that dilithium crystals themselves possess some kind of energy creation properties, as opposed to the more conventional energy focusing properties that later series refer to. From Memory Alpha:

Housed in a dilithium crystal converter assembly, the crystals were used as a power source as well as a regulator. Dependency on that power meant the starships risked losing the ability to maintain an orbit, let alone use of their warp drive, when a number of dilithium crystals were drained of their power or became fused in their assembly. In some circumstances, crystals could be re-amplified to provide continued service, rather than replaced. (TOS: "Mudd's Women", "The Alternative Factor", "Elaan of Troyius")

It's one of the many confusing things about the technology behind how warp drive and other power systems work on a starship, and how it's changed drastically over the years throughout the movies and spin-off's.

 

[T'Girl]

SPOCK: The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven ...

The episode makes it sound like the Klingons captured (almost) two key decks of the ship

I believe that the Klingons didn't capture the entire decks, only controled the central "working" portions, the outer portions with living quarters, lounges, storage and such were locked away when the bulkhead doors closed. A number of the trapped crewmembers were simply closed off in the living areas of those two decks.

Kirk had canceled red alert prior to the door closing, many of the released crewmember would have gone to their quarters, got something to eat, or headed to recreation activities.

From the bridge, decks six and seven are "down there."

.

 

[Timo]

Maybe SOT but do we know Dilithium is used to mediate the m/am reactions in TOS?

We know it is used in the 24th century, TNG-explicit fashion in the 22nd century, as rather painfully explained in ENT "Bound".

We don't know for sure if there was an alternate method of using it in the 23rd century before Starfleet reverted to the ENT/TNG method, but the ambiguous data from TOS allows us to believe basically whatever we wish - including that dilithium regulates matter/antimatter intermix in Kirk's ship as well.

TOS just adds the tidbit that mere "aligning" of the crystals doesn't suffice: they have to be "energized" as well, especially after cosmic hiccups... But whether they can act as independent sources of energy (in TOS or in the other eras) is far from said.

From the bridge, decks six and seven are "down there."

Agreed - and "lower decks" might even be the semi-official synonym for "decks other than the bridge". Or, say, "decks lower than 3", as that's supposedly the lowermost in the ship's superstructure (the thing jutting out of the top of the saucer - top officers have cabins there), while decks below the superstructure of a ship have traditionally been called "lower decks".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

When I was posing my last question, I was trying hard not to think of the NX wsrp drive systems.

 

[Mytran]

Maybe SOT but do we know Dilithium is used to mediate the m/am reactions in TOS?

We know it is used in the 24th century, TNG-explicit fashion in the 22nd century, as rather painfully explained in ENT "Bound".

I assume you mean this snippet:

(Tucker is supervising work on the top of the engine.)
TUCKER: It's a good bet the problem's right there. Take it apart.
(The crewman leaves, and then he hears giggling from below.)
KELBY: The injectors feed into the dilithium chamber.
D'NESH: That's where the matter and antimatter mix.
KELBY: That's right.
D'NESH: The crystals let you control the reaction.
KELBY: That's right.

If applying a 24th century focus to this conversation then it certainly might appear that the NX-01 utilises a TNG-style engine setup (despite the inconsistencies that this creates in respect of the TOS aviation model, even more so if The Phoenix also used self-contained nacelles).
However, it is just as likely that the large reactor thingumabob in the Engine Room is only the "warp core" in as much as it fuels the central warp control systems, balancing out the warp field and so forth. Such a device was even postulated in the series bible and the function was assigned to the gizmo (which looks suspiciously like the TMP impulse crystal but explicitly isn't) near the aft of the ship. Naturally, such a key piece of machinery needs lots of energy to function and what better piece of equipment to fuel it than a (comparatively) compact matter/antimatter reactor. Let's face it, that "manifold" we see in the Engine Room is far too small to be a believable predecessor of Picard's reactor and those "plasma conduits" supposedly providing the sole source of fuel to the nacelles are TINY in any era. Far more likely that this is some supplementary (though extremely vital) reactor to the main ones in the nacelles.

The "dilithium chamber" is simply where the energy is converted from its raw state into a form usable by the ship's systems, much like on Kirk's ship a century later. The dilithium only "controls" the reaction in as much as it does something useful with all the gamma rays and other such deadly stuff which is the normal result of matter and antimatter colliding.

There's also this helpful little conversation in Cold Front:

TUCKER: The gravimetric field displacement manifold, commonly known as the warp reactor. Just think of it as a great big engine but instead of using electricity or chemical fuel it runs on antimatter. See this swirling light? When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field.
TUCKER: I see you already know a thing or two about starship engines.
SONSORRA: I'm a warp field theorist.
TUCKER: Oh. Well, I guess that covers the basics. Any questions?
ALIEN: How do you regulate positron flow in your dilithium matrix?
TUCKER: Good one. I'll bring up the schematic of the reactor assembly and you can see for yourself. If you'll just come with me. We use a series of magnetic constrictors to align the positron stream. If any stray particles escape backups automatically kick in.

Tucker is clearly using an extremely simplified version of the process for his guest, but there's nothing here that strays from my "supplementary reactor" idea.

 

[yenny]

Here's another thought on separation. In "The Apple" Kirk, at one point tell Scotty to: "Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there."

We often look at separating the primary hull from the secondary hull. But I think there is another option here. That is jettisoning the nacelles by themselves. This would leave you with the "main section" (primary and secondary hulls).

In this mode of separation you wouldn't loose all your shuttle craft, cargo and other important machinery. But you would still get rid of those dangerous m/am reactors (aka bombs). However in the context of "The Apple" is sounds more like Kirk is talking about shedding weight(meaning mass).

With this mode of separation would there really be any reason to jettison the secondary hull? If your dangerous stuff is out there in the nacelles why ditch your secondary hull?

Jettison the nacelles doesn't mean that the warp core is in the nacelles themself. It was meant that the Enterprise was being held by the tracker beam from the planet at it nacelles. If they had to jettison the nacelles, the Enterprise will still have it warp core. Cause it is in the Engineering hull. But it would not have warp capability, cause most of the components that will allow a starship to go to warp are in it nacelles.

 

[Shark]

the engines are positioned away from the hull for a reason

But the fact remains that they are not! That is, they are positioned right next to the hull, through major engineering effort where long and vulnerable-looking pylons are utilized to make sure the nacelles almost touch the main hull.

I get what you're saying, but they're out there for a reason; by admission of the very guy that designed it, Matt Jefferies. He put them out there because the energy they radiated is dangerous... or something.

The engineers in TMP wore safety suits for a reason

But again the fact remains that they did not! That is, there were always people carelessly in shirtsleeves there, mixed with the coveralls folks.

While they weren't that consistent in TMP, they were more consistent in TWOK and people did have those suits for a reason. Obviously or they wouldn't have had them in the first place. Just as there was a plexiglass shield in the Transporter room. They were trying to convey the idea of "fantastic" - dangerous energies. Though there's not much separating them from said energies and what of the people being beamed, etc.. but you take it for what it is on the surface. I get your argument, though. They should have been more consistent.

 

[Shark]

To answer to O.P. succinctly; the engines are positioned away from the hull for a reason. (Beyond aesthetics) The engineers in TMP wore safety suits for a reason. It stands to reason that the location of Engineering would be as far away from crew habitation areas as possible. Thus, the secondary hull. I would imagine the same is true for ships without secondary hulls.

You are correct that the nacelles are the "hot parts" and on pylons for a reason (IMO of course, it's a fiction show) - but the location of engineering control doesn't have to have any relation to the nacelles. In fact, cargo would be best to put nearest to it. Only in extreme circumstances does anyone need to go to the "hot zone". From what I can tell, there is not habitable space in the nacelles - they are meant to be operated remotely. Sure - there is a sort of central area near the pylons that has engineering and may house some other "hot stuff", but it could be minimally manned and the main engineering work done in the primary hull engineering section as laid out by FJ.

Well, I don't know. From a design standpoint I would think you'd want your control center close to that which you are controlling. It would cut down on the length of conduit and such. And the simpler the design, the better. Now if the secondary hull were largely uninhabited and filled to the brim with machinery, then I can see having your control room in the saucer. But I don't see that being the case. In my personal opinion the Engineroom is in the secondary hull. I also think a case can be made that the support structure on the ceiling of the Engineroom outlined secondary hull.

But that's just my opinion.