Constitution class Engineering

[TIN_MAN]

There's also this from “The Doomsday Machine"…

“We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors andknocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.”

The reference to “generators” here is usually taken to mean the shield generators, but it may be a reference to the anti-matter generators? So perhaps it’s not so much that the A-M has been “deactivated” but the said generators themselves?

 

[Timo]

In the first wink out, people noted the loss and that's why you have Masters checking in with Kirk.

Yes, that's my point: that's how you notice problems with dilithium that is being used by the ship.

The other times the ship was alerted to a situation to the dilithium as it was happening so if it was a problem they would've noticed. If not then they could of been idling those crystals.

And that's how it would go if the dilithium indeed were "idled". But it's not: it's being reamplified, and has been fully reamplified when the thefts take place. It's off the loop in some other manner, or then reamplifiying means zip and, more generally, dilithium means zip. But the first wink-out established that reamplified dilithium is crucial instead!

They wouldn't have noticed a problem with the crystals until they were about to fire up the warp engines. Remember in "The Alternative Factor" the Enterprise is in orbit and wasn't in a combat stance with shields and weapons active.

But was still going to crash in ten hours. And subtle orbital maneuvering depends on dilithium or its ersatz alternatives in the "introductory" case of "Mudd's Women", too.

So dilithium makes a difference

a) for certain low-energy applications, meaning many would qualify as "canaries" here, ranging from McCoy's diagnostics to T'Sheldon's routine cosmological measurement to Scotty's cycling of the life support system, and

b) for an issue that is of great and direct concern in this episode at this point, with specific personnel no doubt tasked with keeping an eye on it (to wit, Sulu watching whether the ship really crashes or not).

The only reason the eyes would not be on the prize all the time there is if the odds of the dilithium doing any good were zero to begin with - if the rescue from certain doom were something that would only kick in after Masters reported she was done with the stuff. And Kirk indeed queries Masters, but not Sulu.

The crystals had already been reamplified before Lazarus steals the first pair so that would mean the energizer we see them in is already being used for powering the ship.

Well, that's a good alternate take on it. But it doesn't get around the problem of why something crucial to the ship's survival, that is, whether the crystals are in place and amplified or out of place or drained, would no longer be constantly monitored.

Well we know only the warp engines regenerate and the impulse systems do not so that's main power being regenerated forever Also remember Kirk gave a more finite duration when it came to food supplies versus the forever of their power situation.

To nitpick, Kirk was about to give an estimate for the food supplies, at which point Odona substituted "forever". We don't know if he was about to say that food would outlast energy or vice versa - but from the lack of comment, we can rest assured both would outlast the two castaboards, to it's academic only!

What piece of dialogue has "warp energies regenerate"?

As for "antimatter generators" or "matter/antimatter generators", an analogy to "diesel generators" would have these consume rather than produce antimatter... And would be consistent with the idea of antimatter as a versatile onboard power source, used both in the main reactor and various other applications down to photon torpedo warheads.

Now, the background assumption in VOY was that they could increase their onboard antimatter supply with a doodad they had aboard - a doodad that required fuel in order to run, but then basically converted that fuel into the sort that the warp engines could use, that is, antimatter. All of the adventures make sense with that in mind, even "Deadlock" where the total loss of antimatter from one ship would be something it would take ages to replenish, and not an issue they could solve with the doodad in plot time. But direct dialogue support is more or less lacking.

That dilithium would be fuel is an idea not well supported by any of the adventures, even if dilithium is crucial for getting oomph out of fuel. But the Hansens could be cutting corners in the dialogue there, saying that ramscoops can get deuterium from any old gas giant, but only those systems with additional resources such as dilithium are relevant as potential fueling spots...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe by VOY they had a device to convert deuterium to antimatter deuterium but it would not be 100% efficient probably much less. I also do not believe that the Bussard collectors run during the warp drive active.
I thought the "generator" references involved using not creating antimatter.

 

[Timo]

Maybe by VOY they had a device to convert deuterium to antimatter deuterium but it would not be 100% efficient probably much less.

Well, being 1% effective would still provide a massive net gain, considering how much more energy would be released from the annihilation of that one unit of antideuterium than would have been inserted by the fusing of those hundred units of deuterium.

OTOH, being 1% effective overall would still be a victory, as gaining that antimatter would allow the ship to run to bountiful fuel sources easily enough.

I also do not believe that the Bussard collectors run during the warp drive active.

Now this is interesting enough: many components of a starship are brightly lit and thus presumably "active" in all flight modes. Impulse engines glow red when the ship is at a standstill; warp engines glow blue when the ship is at impulse or standstill; ramscoops glow red or yellow-red-orange-swirl all the time. Except when the ship is suffering from some sort of overarching power loss, that is - and in TOS, regarding the ramscoops, not necessarily even then.

Is the glare really indicative of "activity" or not, in these diverse cases?

Unfortunately, the two times we actually get dialogue on ramscoops, "Samaritan Snare" and ST:INS, are special cases.

In the former, all the dialogue relating to the manipulation of the ramscoops is kept from the Pakled ears till the trick has done the trick - and it's thus kept from our ears as well. In the latter, we can't tell whether the ramscoops needed to be specifically turned on, as only the command to turn them to blow was heard. And them being off might have been nonstandard anyway, things being different in the Briar Patch than in normal space at either sublight or warp.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sgt_G]

Here's how I explained it in a story I'm writing:

Lieutenant Zychowski strapped himself in the third chair, the trainer's seat, behind Lieutenant Dupree and Ensign Tillman as they continued their sensor search. "What are you doing exactly?"

"A scoop and go," Tillman replied. "We're looking for a suitable gas giant or proto-star to skim off some hydrogen. Or to be more precise, the heavy hydrogen isotope known as deuterium."

"Deuterium? I though the warp drive runs on anti-matter."

"It does. Or rather, it runs on matter/anti-matter reactions. The deuterium is the matter part of the fuel." She looked at the planet that Dupree pointed to and shook her head as she tapped the screen on the line of the sensor reading that indicated it had too many carbohydrates in the mix. He flagged it as a planet to be surveyed at a later date; it might have indigenous life-forms. "What we'll do is fly low over the target planet and use the tractor beam to draw up a bulge in the atmosphere. Then we'll snap-turn back and fly thru that and pull it in with the Bussard collectors.

"We'll hit it at about warp one point four to one point six, or about three to four times light speed. As the mixture is pulled in, it will naturally begin to spin like a tornado. The heavier deuterium will separate due to centrifugal force, and we'll syphon that off. What's left of the hydrogen atoms will be squeezed together at hyper-luminescent velocities. Some of the atoms will be stripped of their electrons and become free ion particles, or be converted to tritium, which is too radioactive for our use, while a few hydrogen atoms will fuse to become helium atoms. It makes a great light show.

"Occasionally, like perhaps one in a hundred million chances, the hydrogen atoms will smash together in such a way as to create an anti-matter atom. These too will be drawn into the Bussard collector via a magnetic guide. We'll get maybe one part anti-matter for every ten thousand parts deuterium, but that's plenty." Ensign Tillman smiled at the Marine. "That's the dumbed-down high school version. If you really want to know what happens, you need to take a couple years of advanced physics."

Zychowski nodded. "So, if this is how you refuel the ship, why haven't I ever seen it before? And why did the commander say to buckle up?"

"This is an emergency procedure," Dupree explained. "Star Fleet has ships specifically designed to gather material to take to a star base for processing. As to buckling up, just wait until we hit the atmosphere at three times the speed of light. It's going to be a bumpy ride."

 

[blssdwlf]

Ahh, I thought about that but didn't include in the list as the "generators" didn't have the matter-antimatter label in front of it. But yeah, that is one possibility. I like it

One more:
TOS: "The Ultimate Computer"

SPOCK: M-5 appears drawing power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves.
SCOTT: So now it has virtually unlimited power. Captain, what'll we do?
​

There's also this from “The Doomsday Machine"…

“We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors andknocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.”

The reference to “generators” here is usually taken to mean the shield generators, but it may be a reference to the anti-matter generators? So perhaps it’s not so much that the A-M has been “deactivated” but the said generators themselves?

 

[blssdwlf]

In the first wink out, people noted the loss and that's why you have Masters checking in with Kirk.

Yes, that's my point: that's how you notice problems with dilithium that is being used by the ship.

Does your point also include that the time from the crystals were drained in the first wink out and the time Masters shows up on the bridge is at minimum 4 minutes? (2 minutes + intro + 2 minutes on planet surface). Put it another way, in each instance the crystals were stolen afterwards the crew already knew something was up with the dilithium and therefore they didn't need to report it immediately or the time for them to report it was well after the action and scene to be included where the TV viewer could catch it.

The other times the ship was alerted to a situation to the dilithium as it was happening so if it was a problem they would've noticed. If not then they could of been idling those crystals.

And that's how it would go if the dilithium indeed were "idled". But it's not: it's being reamplified, and has been fully reamplified when the thefts take place. It's off the loop in some other manner, or then reamplifiying means zip and, more generally, dilithium means zip.

On the contrary. According to the episode they were already re-amped before we see them stolen from the energizers yet we know the ship wasn't actively using full power.

It's the same in "Elaan of Troyius". The ship went to red alert with an attacking Klingon battlecruiser but nothing on the ship yet was pulling power to the warp engines or phasers and therefore no one knew the dilithium crystals were going to be a problem.

Those crystals in the energizers were reamped and were immediately available for use in the energizer even though the ship wasn't actively using them yet.

But the first wink-out established that reamplified dilithium is crucial instead!

It only established that they needed full power in ten hours before their orbit will decay. For all we know once they were reamped, they nudged the orbit and reset the clock.

KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
​

The crystals had already been reamplified before Lazarus steals the first pair so that would mean the energizer we see them in is already being used for powering the ship.

Well, that's a good alternate take on it. But it doesn't get around the problem of why something crucial to the ship's survival, that is, whether the crystals are in place and amplified or out of place or drained, would no longer be constantly monitored.

It probably is constantly monitored. I just think that the TV viewer isn't always informed of the situation immediately because the action is occurring somewhere else away from this specific chain of information.

After the 1st wink out - 2 minutes go by on the bridge before Kirk and co beam down and only when he returns to the bridge does Masters give him a report. We can speculate that all sorts of alarms went off with the crystals drained and the engineering crew informed Kirk on his way to the transporter room and Kirk had Masters report to him when he got back.

After the 1st crystal robbery, Kirk already knows that Masters is being attacked and his immediate log entry states they lost 2 crystals. Again, the tv viewer isn't shown the intervening time where they go over the power loss, inspect the energizer, etc.

And again the 2nd crystal robbery with the shorted energizer, Kirk and co enter and confirm the stolen crystals. Again the tv viewer isn't in on the chain of conversation about the lost power because the show cuts to Lazarus in the transporter room.

Both cases that you are arguing about are covered:
Q. Why aren't the crystal power loss noted?
A. They were in the first case after a long delay. In the remaining cases they didn't have to show the tv viewer because the loss was already noted.
Q. Why aren't the crystal power loss felt?
A. The ship's crystal converter assembly and systems were undamaged and the ship was not doing anything high powered in each case. We've seen the ship go to Red Alert with shields and still not trigger the use of the crystals ("Elaan of Troyius").

Well we know only the warp engines regenerate and the impulse systems do not so that's main power being regenerated forever Also remember Kirk gave a more finite duration when it came to food supplies versus the forever of their power situation.

To nitpick, Kirk was about to give an estimate for the food supplies, at which point Odona substituted "forever". We don't know if he was about to say that food would outlast energy or vice versa - but from the lack of comment, we can rest assured both would outlast the two castaboards, to it's academic only!

Nitpicking your nitpick, here is the dialogue where Odona asked first about "forever", not afterwards:

KIRK: How long would you like it to last?
ODONA: Forever.
KIRK: Well, let's see. Power, that's no problem, it regenerates. And food. We have enough to feed a crew of four hundred and thirty for five years. So that should last us.
​

And Kirk is very specific here about the "forever". Power, no problem it regenerates. Food, not forever, but enough for the two of us.

What piece of dialogue has "warp energies regenerate"?

In the TOS dialogue, only warp engines are ever mentioned to be able to regenerate or need to be regenerated.

As for "antimatter generators" or "matter/antimatter generators", an analogy to "diesel generators" would have these consume rather than produce antimatter... And would be consistent with the idea of antimatter as a versatile onboard power source, used both in the main reactor and various other applications down to photon torpedo warheads.

That's one way to interpret it. Although the in TOS having a m/am generator on the ship making more m/am is inline with how the series is presented.

Now, the background assumption in VOY was that they could increase their onboard antimatter supply with a doodad they had aboard - a doodad that required fuel in order to run, but then basically converted that fuel into the sort that the warp engines could use, that is, antimatter. All of the adventures make sense with that in mind, even "Deadlock" where the total loss of antimatter from one ship would be something it would take ages to replenish, and not an issue they could solve with the doodad in plot time. But direct dialogue support is more or less lacking.

That dilithium would be fuel is an idea not well supported by any of the adventures, even if dilithium is crucial for getting oomph out of fuel. But the Hansens could be cutting corners in the dialogue there, saying that ramscoops can get deuterium from any old gas giant, but only those systems with additional resources such as dilithium are relevant as potential fueling spots...

Or perhaps the Voyager writer watched a TOS episode and thought, yeah, get some more dilithium and use it to create some m/am fuel.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I also do not believe that the Bussard collectors run during the warp drive active.

Actually, that's the best time for them to operate, because at warp speeds the rather rarified interstellar medium would seem like a dense plasma, due to the increased number of particle collisions with the vessel, and the Bussards' magnetic fields ingathering the said interstellar medium would thus need less energy for their "magnetic scoops"

I thought the "generator" references involved using not creating antimatter.

Maybe it’s the same thing? Anti-matter could be used as it is generated, with reserves in the nacelles for emergencies?

 

[Ronald Held]

How much energy are you expending to run magnetic field s at warp plus the extra "drag" or loss of momentum by vacuuming up gases?

 

[Timo]

Both cases that you are arguing about are covered:
Q. Why aren't the crystal power loss noted?
A. They were in the first case after a long delay. In the remaining cases they didn't have to show the tv viewer because the loss was already noted.
Q. Why aren't the crystal power loss felt?
A. The ship's crystal converter assembly and systems were undamaged and the ship was not doing anything high powered in each case. We've seen the ship go to Red Alert with shields and still not trigger the use of the crystals ("Elaan of Troyius").

Okay, I can buy that.

Interestingly, only "almost" all crystals were "completely" drained. Perhaps the need for a full set really wasn't that acute, as the ship could run on any number of crystals (down to one and then even zero in "Mudd's Women"), and one or two were still good to go (and indeed going all the time, while the rest were being healed). But Kirk wanted to emphasize that the issue should be remedied immediately, for future redundancy, even though Masters might not feel the need based on her professional opinion yet.

And Kirk is very specific here about the "forever". Power, no problem it regenerates. Food, not forever, but enough for the two of us.

Or then "Power, okay. AND food." is our cue that everything listed indeed lasts forever, the definition of which is "these things will outlive us".

In the TOS dialogue, only warp engines are ever mentioned to be able to regenerate or need to be regenerated.

(But where? "Where No Man" only?)

Or perhaps the Voyager writer watched a TOS episode

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TIN_MAN]

How much energy are you expending to run magnetic field s at warp plus the extra "drag" or loss of momentum by vacuuming up gases?

The actual figures are classified.

But the Bussards do not need to be on the entire time the ship is at warp, and as I said the magnetic field would be much smaller, and thus less energy intensive this way.

Critics of Bussard’s original idea have already pointed out that his system would actually make a better braking system for starships than one for fuel acquisition.

Perhaps this explains how trek ships slow down from high warp speeds though?

Incidentally, the high density of the interstellar medium at warp speeds neatly explains why trek ships are generally so streamlined.

 

[Ronald Held]

Still seems more efficient to acquire deuterium within a planetary system.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Well, it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, both methods could be used? Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, and let it go at that.

 

[blssdwlf]

And Kirk is very specific here about the "forever". Power, no problem it regenerates. Food, not forever, but enough for the two of us.

Or then "Power, okay. AND food." is our cue that everything listed indeed lasts forever, the definition of which is "these things will outlive us".

I didn't get that vibe at all, but I'll just agree to disagree.

In the TOS dialogue, only warp engines are ever mentioned to be able to regenerate or need to be regenerated.

(But where? "Where No Man" only?)

"Regenerating" the warp engines is mentioned in "Where No Man...", "The Naked Time" and "The Mark of Gideon".

Also, I think in "The Tholian Web" the ship's power was also being regenerated but only mentioned in percentages.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Still seems more efficient to acquire deuterium within a planetary system.

True as this is, it would be FAR more efficient to just use a fuel source other than deuterium.