Consider this about Kirk's promotion...
- Thread starter Norrin Radd
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wouldn't that be a change.... all those people who yell canon violation.... if kirk hadn't been made captain of the enterprise of the enterprise they'd be yelling objections in the other direction.
They could have written it differently so that he was already a commander during the main plotline although that would have jeopardized the Kobyashi Maru scene. I think trying to go from graduating from the academy to being captain of the Enterprise in one mission is far too rushed and compact. I would indeed have preferred that the film send the message that even the best have to work over time through the ranks, but I might have believed the promotion more if he had gotten command of the ship in a different way (the Vulcan is too emotional so we need to let a hothead take command?) and was more impressive.
Me, I don't think Kirk should have skipped *any* rank, although graduating him at the rank of Lieutenant would be okay (I believe his TOS counterpart did so).
If the movie must end with Kirk being captain, they should have simply done a flash forward, like "5 years later..."
I don't think there is a Commander rank in TOS I think it goes Lieutenant Commander then Captain.
No, Starfleet definitely has a rank of Commander. They always have.
Spock was a full Commander for most of TOS, except about the first half of season 1 where he was a Lieutenant Commander.
Who say's kirk was ever demoted after taking command after spock resigned... pike made him first officer... spock captain.... spock resigns... kirk's acting captain... pike returns... becomes captain... kirk is now first officer.... I dont believe pike ever changed that... pike gets promoted to admiral. although JJ say's there was supposed to be a interval between the award cermony and nero's death. it is unfortunate he doesn't say 3; 5; or 12 months later... Kirk still becomes captain after pikes promotion.
No one ever explains how much time elapsed between the Enterprise escaping the singularity and Kirk becoming a captain. It could be hours, if that floats your boat. I like to think that's a longer period than just a few days. Yeah, everyone is still in their academy suits, but this still could give Kirk some more time in maturing into a person worthy of being the captain of the Federation flagship.
The only problem with that is Pike. He's still in his wheelchair when Kirk gets the captaincy. What's wrong with him that it takes him so long to recover? All these Centaurian Slugs supposedly do is make you tell the truth.
Nero said that's what they do, not only what they do. I think it has to be more than a few days. The Enterprise was fully repaired.
At the ceremony, Kirk still has the bruise on his face that he got in the platform fight and has throughout the rest of the movie, so it couldn't have been too much later. The bruise is gone by the time of the next scene on the bridge.
I thought Kirk's origin story was thin and weak. The setup was good. Young farmboy Kirk is a fatherless, bratty, undisciplined, disrespectful, smart alecky whiz kid. But there wasn't any kind of character growth arc. There weren't any real moments of development and maturity. At the end, when he is promoted to captain, he still seemed to me to be that same guy who was eating the apple, not taking the Kobayashi test seriously and actually clueless about its purpose.
There's a couple of things I don't think have been mentioned about a starship captain yet.
Yeah, Kirk stopped Nero and saved Earth, but would you guys and gals really promote him to captain of the Enterprise based on what we saw of him here? The Enterprise's mission is to make first contact with alien civilizations. The captain of the Enterpise is the person who will make the first impression with newly discovered alien civilizations on behalf of the whole human race. Its an incredibly important job. NuKirk didn't do anything here to show that he has the qualities you would want an individual to have for that.
Also, the captain of a ship is someone that the junior officers and younger grunts on that ship will look up to. He'll be an influence on them. You'd want the captain to be a positive influence, LOL.
Doesn't the idea of promoting someone to captain of the starship Enterprise just as a reward diminish the importance of the position? And don't the rationales that have been thought up here (he was promoted this quickly because starfleet was short on personnel after the attack on Vulcan, he was promoted because it was a good PR move for starfleet, etc.) diminish the legend of James T. Kirk?
Before, we could imagine that Kirk was the youngest captain in starfleet history because he displayed and proved to his superiors that he was indeed ready, mature, wise, and capable at a younger age than anyone else in starfleet history, and not because starfleet was short on personnel, it was a good PR move, they didn't know what else to do with him, etc.
AHEM Star Trek III
Kirk (paraphrasing): "Our orders are to stay here. Therefore, I am going anyway."
Perhaps this theory has already been raised but could it be that Spock Prime, coming from the future and with his vast knowledge of said future, directly intervened behind the scenes at Starfleet to have Kirk promoted? He did after-all decide to come out into the open at the end of the movie.
I doubt it. Spock would never risk altering the timeline like that. He had to make sure Kirk became captain on his own.
Only to his younger self did he reveal his true identity. I doubt he will tell that to the other Vulcans at the colony.
Um Kirk was clueless to its purpose in the Prime Timeline UNTIL THE WRTAH OF KHAN OVER 20 YEARS AFTER HE BECAME CAPTAIN OF THE ENTERPRISE, He never took the damn test seriously in ANY timeline seeing as he cheated in the prime timeline too.
I believe what I’m going to say has already been mentioned in one way or another but I still feel like I have to add my two cents, if only to double-check that I understood the movie correctly.
When the whole Vulcan incident occurred, I assumed that the cadets who were sent to the rescue mission had received their commission in-situ, meaning that by the time they boarded their ships they were already considered graduated.
Now, I think I heard Spock calling Uhura ‘lieutenant’ while she followed him so that he would assign her to the Enterprise. Uhura, as I understood, was at least a fourth year student, meaning that she had effectively completed her studies at the Academy.
We know that both Kirk and McCoy joined at least one year after Uhura did but McCoy, being a doctor, had already achieved the rank of Lieutenant Commander (if his sleeve bands account for something…) Kirk had taken the Kobayashi Maru test three times, meaning that he was likely nearing completion of the required course work to graduate (maybe I’m wrong here though…)
At any rate, I think it’s safe to assume that, had he not been suspended, he would have graduated with his fellow classmates with the rank of Lieutenant. But that doesn’t happen, instead we get Kirk smuggled onboard the Enterprise and then he goes and saves the ship, with a nice assist courtesy of Mr Sulu’s nerves, impressing Captain Pike enough so that he gets somehow involved in the whole mission to disable the drill.
Now, I presume that this means that Kirk’s suspension is somehow revoked by Pike’s authority and that at the same time Kirk is being commissioned and thus earns his rank as Lieutenant.
If that’s so, then we have Pike leaving the Enterprise’s command to Spock who had been up to then First Officer, passing that responsibility to the newly commissioned Lt Kirk (one thing which I’ll never understand though and that I don’t see anyone objecting too strongly, is how relatively absurd it is to have a Starfleet Captain sending on a mission impossible his ship’s pilot, the chief engineer and the newly appointed first officer….all the while he goes to pay a visit to the badass of the movie who is likely going go kill him too, now…THAT is weird, to say the least).
But I digress….now we have Commander Spock in charge of the Enterprise but it doesn’t last long because Kirk, via a quick visit to go and fetch the last of his original crew members as well as getting a few tips on how to piss off a Vulcan, he becomes the Acting Captain of the USS Enterprise.
To end this stupidly long rant, I’ll say that rather than getting a stellar promotion, jumping ranks like a freaking frog, I’d say that Starfleet (probably with a few bribes from both Pike and Spock Prime) merely confirmed the battlefield rank Kirk had earned by doing what James T Kirk does best: thinking out of the box and going against common sense in order to achieve the unachievable.
I do agree that he didn’t do it by himself: he had the help of many people but, in my book, a good leader is not one who does everything himself, is one who manages to get the best out of the people who work for him and, guys, isn’t that what Kirk does all the time?
Another matter is the fact that he lacks experience and the trust and respect from his crew. I think that as far as his crew goes, his CMO (McCoy) is already his best friend so, no problems there, with his pilot (Sulu) they’ve saved each other’s lives so, they’re even, his navigator (Chekov) is so delighted that Kirk actually listened to him and applied his knowledge for the mission that he’ll be happy to work for Kirk and Spock, he actually volunteered to be his First Officer, I believe as much to see if Spock Prime’s predictions were true (i.e. they would be the Dream Team they had been in the previous timeline) as well as to keep Kirk on check which is what Spock does best (together with McCoy, of course). As per Uhura, hey, her man is there so, methinks she’d be happy to work for anyone as long as Spock’s there. (Plus she’s got a super-secret crush on Kirk, even if she doesn’t want to admit it (ok, that’s the fangirl in me talking…))
In terms of experience, well, Kirk has always been a very fast learner. It won’t take him long to get the basics and he does have Spock to point him in the right direction when he’ll get lost. After all, Spock is an Academy instructor, isn’t he?
If this hasn’t convinced you already, I’ll just say that it’s a movie, and a brilliant one at that. And it’s James T Kirk, he NEEDS the Captain stripes on his sleeves, otherwise it looks weird.
When the whole Vulcan incident occurred, I assumed that the cadets who were sent to the rescue mission had received their commission in-situ, meaning that by the time they boarded their ships they were already considered graduated.
Now, I think I heard Spock calling Uhura ‘lieutenant’ while she followed him so that he would assign her to the Enterprise. Uhura, as I understood, was at least a fourth year student, meaning that she had effectively completed her studies at the Academy.
We know that both Kirk and McCoy joined at least one year after Uhura did but McCoy, being a doctor, had already achieved the rank of Lieutenant Commander (if his sleeve bands account for something…) Kirk had taken the Kobayashi Maru test three times, meaning that he was likely nearing completion of the required course work to graduate (maybe I’m wrong here though…)
At any rate, I think it’s safe to assume that, had he not been suspended, he would have graduated with his fellow classmates with the rank of Lieutenant. But that doesn’t happen, instead we get Kirk smuggled onboard the Enterprise and then he goes and saves the ship, with a nice assist courtesy of Mr Sulu’s nerves, impressing Captain Pike enough so that he gets somehow involved in the whole mission to disable the drill.
Now, I presume that this means that Kirk’s suspension is somehow revoked by Pike’s authority and that at the same time Kirk is being commissioned and thus earns his rank as Lieutenant.
If that’s so, then we have Pike leaving the Enterprise’s command to Spock who had been up to then First Officer, passing that responsibility to the newly commissioned Lt Kirk (one thing which I’ll never understand though and that I don’t see anyone objecting too strongly, is how relatively absurd it is to have a Starfleet Captain sending on a mission impossible his ship’s pilot, the chief engineer and the newly appointed first officer….all the while he goes to pay a visit to the badass of the movie who is likely going go kill him too, now…THAT is weird, to say the least).
But I digress….now we have Commander Spock in charge of the Enterprise but it doesn’t last long because Kirk, via a quick visit to go and fetch the last of his original crew members as well as getting a few tips on how to piss off a Vulcan, he becomes the Acting Captain of the USS Enterprise.
To end this stupidly long rant, I’ll say that rather than getting a stellar promotion, jumping ranks like a freaking frog, I’d say that Starfleet (probably with a few bribes from both Pike and Spock Prime) merely confirmed the battlefield rank Kirk had earned by doing what James T Kirk does best: thinking out of the box and going against common sense in order to achieve the unachievable.
I do agree that he didn’t do it by himself: he had the help of many people but, in my book, a good leader is not one who does everything himself, is one who manages to get the best out of the people who work for him and, guys, isn’t that what Kirk does all the time?
Another matter is the fact that he lacks experience and the trust and respect from his crew. I think that as far as his crew goes, his CMO (McCoy) is already his best friend so, no problems there, with his pilot (Sulu) they’ve saved each other’s lives so, they’re even, his navigator (Chekov) is so delighted that Kirk actually listened to him and applied his knowledge for the mission that he’ll be happy to work for Kirk and Spock, he actually volunteered to be his First Officer, I believe as much to see if Spock Prime’s predictions were true (i.e. they would be the Dream Team they had been in the previous timeline) as well as to keep Kirk on check which is what Spock does best (together with McCoy, of course). As per Uhura, hey, her man is there so, methinks she’d be happy to work for anyone as long as Spock’s there. (Plus she’s got a super-secret crush on Kirk, even if she doesn’t want to admit it (ok, that’s the fangirl in me talking…))
In terms of experience, well, Kirk has always been a very fast learner. It won’t take him long to get the basics and he does have Spock to point him in the right direction when he’ll get lost. After all, Spock is an Academy instructor, isn’t he?
If this hasn’t convinced you already, I’ll just say that it’s a movie, and a brilliant one at that. And it’s James T Kirk, he NEEDS the Captain stripes on his sleeves, otherwise it looks weird.
Which is, really, a whole 'nother argument, since Spock wore the same stripes the whole time ("The Cage" and "WNMHGB" excluded, of course.) Starfleet definitely had the rank of full Commander on TOS and in the movie, though.
I don't think it's entirely clear how graduation relates into rank in the film.
It does appear, to me, based on Uhura/Sulu, that at least some cadets graduate as Lieutenants, and Ensign is perhaps a rank one holds who has not yet graduated (see Chekov) or does not meet whatever special criteria are required for graduating as a Lieutenant. Perhaps completing a training cruise aboard an active starship is required to graduate as a Lieutenant, and perhaps even some (if not all) of the Ensigns we've seen aboard starships in the past are in fact doing this, meaning "Ensign" would replace "Midshipman" as the Cadet rank. Indeed, perhaps a cadet can choose not to do a tour while at the Academy, and simply graduate an Ensign to go on for their first space service.
So maybe Uhura, Kirk, and Sulu each completed a brief tour when we weren't looking and would be graduating as Lieutenants, or perhaps Kirk hadn't even completed his tour yet. Also unclear - and perhaps a vital factor in all this - is the question of just who takes the Kobayashi Maru test. Would it perhaps be possible to take the Kobayashi Maru and graduate as a Lieutenant Commander, on top of one's already-guaranteed Lieutenant rank? That might make Kirk's jump less flimsy.
Clearly, McCoy got billeted up to Lt Cmdr since he was already an M.D. before he enlisted, which fits with modern military practice. Spock's rank is interesting - he seemed to have been in the fleet long enough to be a Commander, but I don't know that it bears close scrutiny.
All of this, to me, points towards the notion that Starfleet has abandoned a lot of the experience-related requirements of previous (pseudo)militaries and is an almost total meritocracy... which doesn't bother me that much since that seems to have primarily been GR's original intent; in "The Cage" - where short of the Captain everyone else seemed to be a Lieutenant, and of course GR mentioned several times that ranks were more akin to titles than 20th (and by extension 21st) ranks. I believe he compared it to how modern navies retain traditions of the times of the early explorers, albeit in a fashion that those explorers would likely not recognize.
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I disagree with you completely. I think Kirk clearly showed his potential to helm the Enterprise. He didn't just stop Nero from destroying Earth. Kirk also was able to deduce that the Enterprise was warping into a trap. No one else put two and two together nor did they do the research of past missions the way, it appears, that Kirk did. When Kirk runs onto the bridge to stop the Enterprise from dropping out of warp, he completely takes command of that bridge. At first, Pike and everyone else thinks he's crazy, until he explains what's happening, and he does it with authority and power. He shows himself to be very intelligent and assertive when he lays out the facts of the various transmissions they have received along with his own instincts and conclusions. Kirk doesn't back down from making sure that he's heard, and because of that tenacity, the Enterprise drops out of warp with shields up and the entire ship on red alert status. In my opinion, THAT'S the moment when Pike realizes that Kirk may just be command material.
Kirk also has demonstrated to his crew that he is a man who can't be kept down. If you throw him off the ship, he's still coming back. If he has a valid argument, he won't back down. More importantly, the man has been right every. single. time. Pike told Kirk that the reason he wanted him to enlist was because Kirk thought outside the box. He didn't just follow regulations and quid pro quo. Kirk questions things. He's unpredictable. It is these qualities that enabled Kirk to save Earth and the rest of the galaxy. Spock and the rest of the Enterprise crew felt it was perfectly fine to regroup in the Leuratian (?) system with the rest of the fleet and come up with a strategic plan to defeat Nero. It sounds logical, but it was not a good idea. The Narada had already destroyed how many ships in the 25 years it was in the galaxy? We know it destroyed the Kelvin, 47 Klingon warbirds, at least seven starships and the planet Vulcan. Regrouping with rest of the fleet was, as Kirk said, "A massive waste of time." Nero had been fighting everyone for 25 years and everyone was following their respective military procedures. If Spock had been kept in command, Earth would be gone and probably several other planets and starships. When Kirk took command, he initiated an unorthodox and unexpected attack on the Narada.
You also mention that Kirk wouldn't be a positive influence. Again, I disagree. Kirk wanted to hear from everyone on the bridge after he assumed command. He didn't dictate. You'll recall that Scotty, Chekov, Sulu, Uhura, and McCoy, were throwing ideas out, and Kirk was listening and asking more questions. Kirk made it clear that they had to drop out of warp undetected, and that was the challenge he presented to his team, and Chekov came up with a solution. He showed his crew that his command would be a collaborative one, but he would make the final decisions. He showed faith in their ideas and their skills, and he also showed them that he would sacrifice his life for them and the greater good. He told Sulu to fire on the Narada if he felt he had a strategic advantage even if he and Spock were still on board. Sulu wasn't happy about that order, and his respect was evident.
After successfully rescuing Pike and grabbing the black hole device from Nero and getting back to the Enterprise, Kirk DOES show compassion towards Nero. Interestingly, it is Spock, the cool, logical Vulcan, who isn't pleased with Kirk's decision. When Nero refuses the help, Kirk does what he needs to do and destroys his ship.
Lastly, after the Narada is destroyed, and the Enterprise is being pulled into the black hole, once again, it is Kirk's leadership and his immediate reaction to Scotty's suggestion of how to save the Enterprise that does save the Enterprise. That crew ended their entire encounter with the Narada with a newfound respect for Kirk, and that was obvious when he did finally take the command chair as captain. He more than proved his abilities, his skill, his courage, and his faith in his crew.
I don't have a problem with the rapid promotion. Let's just get them started with the next adventure rather than "realistically" showing Kirk rise through the ranks. Who cares? Just get them out in the universe exploring and becoming the legends they become.
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It's not as much of a stretch as some might think. In my job it's perfectly possible to jump two ranks in one go. In fact it's almost compulsory these days. Grr. I did it the hard way.
Let's look at it from a military perspective -
A significant portion of command experience has been wiped out. They need people in place quickly. Kirk has proved his ability to command in the most trying circumstances. He also has an experienced first officer under him, tempering his youthful exuberance (I'd keep quiet about the whole 'because I was told help him to by an older version of me from an alternate timeline' thing though ) and a young crew, most of them just out of the academy. He's in place, why not leave him there? What purpose would be served by having him serve as a Lt or Commander on a different ship when it's plain he can do the big job? If you're good enough, you're old enough.
Which brings me to my next point, do we even know if Enterprise is still the Federation flagship or not? maybe newer, bigger and better ships have been rushed to completion to make up the shortfall. Funnily enough, it would make sense to send the ship full of recently graduated cadets on a long mission, say five years or so, to learn on the job.
It also opens up interesting story possibilities. How would the less experienced NuKirk handle Khan, for example?
Let's look at it from a military perspective -
A significant portion of command experience has been wiped out. They need people in place quickly. Kirk has proved his ability to command in the most trying circumstances. He also has an experienced first officer under him, tempering his youthful exuberance (I'd keep quiet about the whole 'because I was told help him to by an older version of me from an alternate timeline' thing though
) and a young crew, most of them just out of the academy. He's in place, why not leave him there? What purpose would be served by having him serve as a Lt or Commander on a different ship when it's plain he can do the big job? If you're good enough, you're old enough.Which brings me to my next point, do we even know if Enterprise is still the Federation flagship or not? maybe newer, bigger and better ships have been rushed to completion to make up the shortfall. Funnily enough, it would make sense to send the ship full of recently graduated cadets on a long mission, say five years or so, to learn on the job.
It also opens up interesting story possibilities. How would the less experienced NuKirk handle Khan, for example?
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