Commodore Decker

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by ThatsMrCaptaintoyou, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have a couple of headcanon variations on that: a) They are Commodores that are assigned to the Admiralty rather than a field assignment, so get the "rank up" as a courtesy; or b) Mistake by the wardrobe department. Related to the second point, I've occasionally wondered if VADM Hansen from BOBW was originally intended to be Gregory Quinn -- Riker is familiar with the man, he's implied that he'd been a regular visitor, and Quinn offering the Academy CO post (at least a 2-pip billet) to Picard in Conspiracy makes more sense if he himself is a two or three-piper.

    Personally, if they were to adopt a different name for the OF-6 rank then using Flotilla Admiral, which neatly parallels Brigadier General, would have been a suitable choice. Using Division Admiral as others do would mean "demoting" the rank of Rear Admiral, and Group Admiral (not a real rank, but logically formed by "Admiral Commanding a Task Group or Strike Group") has similar issues.
     
  2. PCz911

    PCz911 Captain Captain

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    Well, since you put it that way, who could NOT like it? ;-)
     
  3. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Was I saying that the change was bad? I was merely saying adding that element was the one major change to the story, though it creates some minor narrative issues because it's not well integrated.
     
  4. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry Maurice, I was replying to Timo more than you.
     
  5. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree. The immediate threat aspect is crucial to one point of the plot, and that's Decker's (In his mind) immediate need to take command of the Enterprise from Spock, because if he doesn't the Rigel colony will be destroyed.

    Without that aspect there's nothing stopping Dr McCoy from ordering Decker down to Sick Bay for a full physical and psychological examination, especially after he lost his command due to his own actions. If that examination takes place Dr McCoy has all the evidence he needs to show that Decker is unfit to command a starship at this point in time.
     
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  6. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    A list that reeked of in universe Terran privilege and out universe fanwank
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  7. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I enjoy the latter, but do have issues with the former. They really couldn't have added an alien name or two...?
     
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  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Both would have been tropey as :censored:. Best to have omitted the whole scene.
     
  9. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    Same reason the 918th Bombardment Group was headed by a Brigadier General (Savage). :)
     
  10. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Which was addressed in the 1949 movie but not explained in the series. It was a major story point in the film that Savage was trying to choose and prepare an eventual replacement.
     
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  11. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    There ya go!
     
  12. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    If only they'd used that as his excuse for exiting the show, instead of offing him like a punk.
     
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  13. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Which is?

    Yes, IIRC he was chief of staff at the Bomber Command and was sent to take temporary command of the group after its CO was relieved over unusually high losses.
     
  14. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Conversations like this have me wondering:
    How big was Starfleet in TOS?

    I recall Kirk said there were only 12 ships like the Enterprise in the fleet.
    And there were no indications that there were anything larger or more powerful.

    So, if there are only 12 comparable ships in the fleet, and we end up seeing 3 or 5 taken out,
    there's not a whole lot of fleet for a Fleet Captain/Commodore/Admiral to command.

    What do you think?
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why wouldn't there be more powerful ships in Starfleet?

    Kirk basically never was sent to have an adventure where the capabilities of his ship would have been an issue. He instead generally ran into one while performing a menial task, one suited for a lesser starship. So we don't learn what Starfleet would have sent to that particular adventure, had they known in advance that there was an adventure to be had.

    Generally, Starfleet is at peace during the events of TOS. The big guns would probably be waiting at starbases, then, a fleet-in-being held back as a deterrent rather than run ragged in frontier errands.

    In isolation, "only twelve like her" doesn't really mean much. We now know there are about 7,000 "unlike her" in service at that time, and this is not any sort of a contradiction. Kirk is entitled to taking special pride in operating a specific and somewhat rare type of ship, but it does not follow either that other types would not exist, or that other types would be inferior. The phrase doesn't even timidly suggest such a thing!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    The Ultimate Computer summarizes Starfleet war tactics: Constitution Class starships and nothing else. By inference, there are no larger warships and smaller ships are not used (probably useless against larger ships in wartime). Ships of the Line, only, club.
     
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  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...What would be the point of testing the M-5 against dissimilar ships?

    OTOH, testing it on lesser ships first would seem prudent, and the Enterprise seems to be the first such test... :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Scott Kellogg

    Scott Kellogg Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The situations in "Arena" and "Balance of Terror" lead me to believe that the frontier is very sparsely defended.
    In both episodes, The Enterprise is all there is.

    "The Enterprise is the only protection in this section of the Federation. Destroy the Enterprise, and everything is wide open."


    Scott Kellogg
     
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  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But logically, that holds for every ship and location. "Destroy the Defiant, and everything is wide open" applies to another section, and "Destroy the Proxima, and everything is wide open" to yet another.

    ...That is, this follows from the logic that the heroes always just happen on these things, as we see them do. And we should also appreciate that while NCC-1701 is somewhere, she's not elsewhere. Yet for some reason, most elsewheres don't get annihilated. If annihilation looms over Federation assets every two weeks or so, the Federation is defended by way more than the dozen ships like the Enterprise.

    What the frontier is, is vast. There's room there for hundreds of adventures simultaneously, judging by the extremely low frequency our heroes or their dozen brethren crews would have on doing any specific duty or covering any specific region. Perhaps not for 7,000 adventures - but hey, not all ships can get citations for heroism.

    ...Again interesting there is that the Enterprise isn't really credited with such. She's many things, but she isn't famous. Not yet, except to Kor in "Errand". Or then Kirk is famous, and for his antics in the previous Klingon War of 2257 no less, so Kor is also particularly aware of the Enterprise.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Four ships operating as an action group on their own certainly makes sense just as it did in the days of sail. Before torpedo boats or aircraft, the biggest threat to the ship was another ship; warships didn't need to be escorted. Not much indication that this doesn't apply in TOS too.

    Whether the Constitutions are analogous to the ships of the line, the frigates or whatever is a more open question. I tend to think they are toward the bigger end, but there's not enough OS evidence one way or another. They could be the backbone of the cruising force, operating long-range on the frontiers, while a battle force of bigger ships (FJ dreadnought?) doesn't stray far from certain strategic points.

    And "Errand of Mercy." Similar to a pre-WW1 navy that had cruisers all over, patrolling the sealanes and supporting the colonies as well as being ready for war.
     
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