Commodore Decker

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet may have faced similar issues, as the apparent lowest flag rank (apparent because the uniform couldn't have fewer rank markings) gets addressed "Admiral" in early TNG.

Might still be those are Commodores since the rank never really appears to go away, getting mentions in ENT, TOS, TOS movies and now PIC even if there are only Okudagram mentions in TNG/DS9/VGR...

I have a couple of headcanon variations on that: a) They are Commodores that are assigned to the Admiralty rather than a field assignment, so get the "rank up" as a courtesy; or b) Mistake by the wardrobe department. Related to the second point, I've occasionally wondered if VADM Hansen from BOBW was originally intended to be Gregory Quinn -- Riker is familiar with the man, he's implied that he'd been a regular visitor, and Quinn offering the Academy CO post (at least a 2-pip billet) to Picard in Conspiracy makes more sense if he himself is a two or three-piper.

Moreover, if the Navy thought they were addressing the hurt feelings of commodores who wanted to be admirals, all they had to do was change the rank to counter admiral, already in widespread use at the equivalent rank in NATO countries.

And since the USN went with two forms of rear admiral, there isn't any reason why two different translations of the same title couldn't be used for one-star and two-star flag officers.

Personally, if they were to adopt a different name for the OF-6 rank then using Flotilla Admiral, which neatly parallels Brigadier General, would have been a suitable choice. Using Division Admiral as others do would mean "demoting" the rank of Rear Admiral, and Group Admiral (not a real rank, but logically formed by "Admiral Commanding a Task Group or Strike Group") has similar issues.

 

[PCz911]

Not even a Moby Dick...in spaaace?

Well, since you put it that way, who could NOT like it? ;-)

 

[Maurice]

I dunno, I always felt a Planet Killer within reach of Planets to Kill upped the stakes somewhat.

If Moby Dick was a whale capable of eating whole towns, I wouldn't want it anywhere near Nantucket, nor anywhere else.

Was I saying that the change was bad? I was merely saying adding that element was the one major change to the story, though it creates some minor narrative issues because it's not well integrated.

 

[Tomalak]

Sorry Maurice, I was replying to Timo more than you.

 

[Noname Given]

Which is one of the true weak points of the episode. Were it between the ships and the beast, all types of time limits would be possible, including ones best reflecting Decker's obsessive hurry. Now that interstellar hurry is added to the equation, nothing about it makes sense any longer. A beast a nearly destroyed starship can easily outrun doesn't gain in frightening powers by threatening to go to the next place; such an action would only give the ships a breather during which they could speed ahead and call for help and arrange for a barricade and whatnot.

The story needed to take place in the isolated depths of faraway space. Combining that with a threat to nearby major assets is a contradiction from which the plot really struggles to recover. How effective would Moby Dick have been if taking place within an afternoon's sailing of the port of Nantucket?

Timo Saloniemi

I disagree. The immediate threat aspect is crucial to one point of the plot, and that's Decker's (In his mind) immediate need to take command of the Enterprise from Spock, because if he doesn't the Rigel colony will be destroyed.

Without that aspect there's nothing stopping Dr McCoy from ordering Decker down to Sick Bay for a full physical and psychological examination, especially after he lost his command due to his own actions. If that examination takes place Dr McCoy has all the evidence he needs to show that Decker is unfit to command a starship at this point in time.

 

[Nyotarules]

Name on a screen when Saru asks about Starfleet’s greatest captains.

A list that reeked of in universe Terran privilege and out universe fanwank

 

[dupersuper]

A list that reeked of in universe Terran privilege and out universe fanwank

I enjoy the latter, but do have issues with the former. They really couldn't have added an alien name or two...?

 

[fireproof78]

Both would have been tropey as . Best to have omitted the whole scene.

 

[Neopeius]

Why was the Commanding Officer of The Constellation a Commodore? It was a Constitution class but did it carry more personal than the Enterprise, Exeter, or Defiant all of which were Commanded by Captains?

Same reason the 918th Bombardment Group was headed by a Brigadier General (Savage).

 

[The Old Mixer]

Same reason the 918th Bombardment Group was headed by a Brigadier General (Savage).

Which was addressed in the 1949 movie but not explained in the series. It was a major story point in the film that Savage was trying to choose and prepare an eventual replacement.

 

[Neopeius]

Which was addressed in the 1949 movie but not explained in the series. It was a major story point in the film that Savage was trying to choose and prepare an eventual replacement.

There ya go!

 

[The Old Mixer]

There ya go!

If only they'd used that as his excuse for exiting the show, instead of offing him like a punk.

 

[J.T.B.]

Same reason the 918th Bombardment Group was headed by a Brigadier General (Savage).

Which is?

Which was addressed in the 1949 movie but not explained in the series. It was a major story point in the film that Savage was trying to choose and prepare an eventual replacement.

Yes, IIRC he was chief of staff at the Bomber Command and was sent to take temporary command of the group after its CO was relieved over unusually high losses.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Conversations like this have me wondering:
How big was Starfleet in TOS?

I recall Kirk said there were only 12 ships like the Enterprise in the fleet.
And there were no indications that there were anything larger or more powerful.

So, if there are only 12 comparable ships in the fleet, and we end up seeing 3 or 5 taken out,
there's not a whole lot of fleet for a Fleet Captain/Commodore/Admiral to command.

What do you think?

 

[Timo]

Why wouldn't there be more powerful ships in Starfleet?

Kirk basically never was sent to have an adventure where the capabilities of his ship would have been an issue. He instead generally ran into one while performing a menial task, one suited for a lesser starship. So we don't learn what Starfleet would have sent to that particular adventure, had they known in advance that there was an adventure to be had.

Generally, Starfleet is at peace during the events of TOS. The big guns would probably be waiting at starbases, then, a fleet-in-being held back as a deterrent rather than run ragged in frontier errands.

In isolation, "only twelve like her" doesn't really mean much. We now know there are about 7,000 "unlike her" in service at that time, and this is not any sort of a contradiction. Kirk is entitled to taking special pride in operating a specific and somewhat rare type of ship, but it does not follow either that other types would not exist, or that other types would be inferior. The phrase doesn't even timidly suggest such a thing!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

The Ultimate Computer summarizes Starfleet war tactics: Constitution Class starships and nothing else. By inference, there are no larger warships and smaller ships are not used (probably useless against larger ships in wartime). Ships of the Line, only, club.

 

[Timo]

...What would be the point of testing the M-5 against dissimilar ships?

OTOH, testing it on lesser ships first would seem prudent, and the Enterprise seems to be the first such test...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Scott Kellogg]

The situations in "Arena" and "Balance of Terror" lead me to believe that the frontier is very sparsely defended.
In both episodes, The Enterprise is all there is.

"The Enterprise is the only protection in this section of the Federation. Destroy the Enterprise, and everything is wide open."

Scott Kellogg

 

[Timo]

But logically, that holds for every ship and location. "Destroy the Defiant, and everything is wide open" applies to another section, and "Destroy the Proxima, and everything is wide open" to yet another.

...That is, this follows from the logic that the heroes always just happen on these things, as we see them do. And we should also appreciate that while NCC-1701 is somewhere, she's not elsewhere. Yet for some reason, most elsewheres don't get annihilated. If annihilation looms over Federation assets every two weeks or so, the Federation is defended by way more than the dozen ships like the Enterprise.

What the frontier is, is vast. There's room there for hundreds of adventures simultaneously, judging by the extremely low frequency our heroes or their dozen brethren crews would have on doing any specific duty or covering any specific region. Perhaps not for 7,000 adventures - but hey, not all ships can get citations for heroism.

...Again interesting there is that the Enterprise isn't really credited with such. She's many things, but she isn't famous. Not yet, except to Kor in "Errand". Or then Kirk is famous, and for his antics in the previous Klingon War of 2257 no less, so Kor is also particularly aware of the Enterprise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

The Ultimate Computer summarizes Starfleet war tactics: Constitution Class starships and nothing else. By inference, there are no larger warships and smaller ships are not used (probably useless against larger ships in wartime). Ships of the Line, only, club.

Four ships operating as an action group on their own certainly makes sense just as it did in the days of sail. Before torpedo boats or aircraft, the biggest threat to the ship was another ship; warships didn't need to be escorted. Not much indication that this doesn't apply in TOS too.

Whether the Constitutions are analogous to the ships of the line, the frigates or whatever is a more open question. I tend to think they are toward the bigger end, but there's not enough OS evidence one way or another. They could be the backbone of the cruising force, operating long-range on the frontiers, while a battle force of bigger ships (FJ dreadnought?) doesn't stray far from certain strategic points.

The situations in "Arena" and "Balance of Terror" lead me to believe that the frontier is very sparsely defended.

In both episodes, The Enterprise is all there is.

And "Errand of Mercy." Similar to a pre-WW1 navy that had cruisers all over, patrolling the sealanes and supporting the colonies as well as being ready for war.