Code of Honor-What would you have done differently?

[Kegg]

If a story has a planet full of dark-skinnned individuals, you will find it racist?

Please note, as we discussed earlier, there are planets with all Caucasians. There have been planets, I believe, with Native Americans, and a TNG novel with an all Asian population.

Do you object to those as well? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, actually, you are misunderstanding something. We have an all-black planet filled with savage primitives who wear vaguely Arabic costumes, are barbaric, indulge in ritual battles to the death and lust after white women - and these simple, alpha male creatures must be bartered with by the far more advanced and civilized Enterprise because they happen to have useful resources.

The issue isn't that they're black, but that the whole planet is every negative stereotype attached to tribal Africa and then throw in the traditional racist image of the black guy seeking to violate white womanhood and you've got... well, you've got something so bad that members of the TNG cast have tried to stop it from airing.

 

[Michael]

^ That about sums it up, yeah. Code of Honor is racist because of the African stereotypes that are attributed to the Ligonians. Their portrayal is very reminiscent of the archaic view of blacks as 'tribal Africans'. Also, the episode is embarrassingly sexist in some moments.

But above all that it's just an incredibly boring episode.

 

[JustKate]

Yeah, racism (unintentional or not) aside, it's just a bad, bad, baaaaaad episode. It's badly written, badly conceived and, with some exceptions, badly acted, too. There's just not much to salvage here.

I guess if they'd made the aliens more interesting, and if it were decently written...well, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the Enterprise having to barter with a planet for an important resource. But jeez, it's not even as if the plot is original, is it? So why bother? Why not scrap the thing and come up with something better and more original?

 

[Joel_Kirk]

If a story has a planet full of dark-skinnned individuals, you will find it racist?

Please note, as we discussed earlier, there are planets with all Caucasians. There have been planets, I believe, with Native Americans, and a TNG novel with an all Asian population.

Do you object to those as well? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, actually, you are misunderstanding something. We have an all-black planet filled with savage primitives who wear vaguely Arabic costumes, are barbaric, indulge in ritual battles to the death and lust after white women - and these simple, alpha male creatures must be bartered with by the far more advanced and civilized Enterprise because they happen to have useful resources.

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything.

I don't see anything savage about the Ligonians...(Being a black male, I would have brought that up).

Now, lusting after white women? (I wasn't aware that Tasha Yar constitutes all 'white women'....)

The issue isn't that they're black, but that the whole planet is every negative stereotype attached to tribal Africa and then throw in the traditional racist image of the black guy seeking to violate white womanhood and you've got... well, you've got something so bad that members of the TNG cast have tried to stop it from airing.

Maybe....

I still think some are making it out to be worse than it is; it's a matter of opinion.

Regardless, I would have liked to have seen the people of Ligon II in another episode; if they WERE indeed portrayed in a negative manner, at least put them in a story that makes them dignified people.

 

[Kegg]

I don't see anything savage about the Ligonians...

Primitive, then. Aside from their plot conveient transporter power, they're clearly primitive, no?

(Being a black male, I would have brought that up).

I hope I don't come across as offensive, then, because I've never really been in the habit of pointing out to people why they should be offended at something. I'm just hoping to explain reasonably coherently why the episode is held in the rather low esteem.

Now, lusting after white women? (I wasn't aware that Tasha Yar constitutes all 'white women'....)

I actually said white womanhood, or more specifically:

traditional racist image of the black guy seeking to violate white womanhood

Which isn't quite the same thing as saying Yar is all white women, just that the episode taps into that image.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

@ Kegg-

No, you don't come off offensive...

Actually, you're bringing up some very interesting points; and you explain those points very well....

I'm enjoying the conversation, actually.

[Note: I'm just a person who asks a lot of questions if I don't understand something, or I'm trying to understand another point of view].

 

[DevilEyes]

As an episode, it's pretty awful, but I don't really feel it's racist. Depends if you would call Angel One sexist?

I would. But most of all I'd call it stupid, just like Code of Honor. And both because of the same thing - the incredibly stupid premise.

If they really wanted to have a planet where women were dominant and men subordinate (in itself a lazy, simplistic and dull premise), they could have made it a civilization where women were considered superior for their ability to give birth or something like that, or where women were considered wiser and more intelligent, while men were considered just brawn, good for fighting and hard work - in other words, change the socio-cultural implications without changing the biology. They certainly shouldn't have made it a race of people where women were bigger and stronger than men, and men were all small and weak. That way it seemed like the writers believed that women were inferior because of their physiology, as well as that the bigger and physically stronger people will always be dominant in a society - which is absurd...especially considering the fact that patriarchy has long survived the stone age, and that the people (usually men) with the most power in a society are usually not the youngest, fittest or physically strongest, but older men who use the physical strength of other men to get the job done.

 

[Kegg]

As an episode, it's pretty awful, but I don't really feel it's racist. Depends if you would call Angel One sexist?

I would. But most of all I'd call it stupid, just like Code of Honor. And both because of the same thing - the incredibly stupid premise.

I'm not going to defend "Angel One" much (because among other things it's a really terrible episode and one of Star Trek's poorest outings overall), but at least there's a point to the episode. It flip-flops traditional gender roles to reject the basis of traditional gender roles. It doesn't do any of this well, granted, but it's hamfisted message more or less has its heart in the right place.

"Code of Honor" is, well, just racist for the hell of it.

 

[QuasarVM]

Instead of using African stereotypes, I would have had it a planet full of Hispanic stereotypes and the planet would look like the ruins of Chichen Itza.

...or Lake Titty Ca Ca.

 

[Smiley]

I would change Yareena's name to something a little more different from Yar.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I agree about how uncomfortable the obvious stereotyping is, in episodes like this and "Up the Long Ladder."

Similarly, for those of you who watch DS9, did any of you notice that while Cardassians were allowed to be played by both white and black actors, the only one played by a black actor to get a speaking role and a name was LEGATE FREAKING BROCA? I think if I'd been the actor, I would've been questioning that, and possibly turned down the role. We should have had proper context before introducing Broca...maybe a run-of-the-mill gul or two, some anti-Dominion rebels, THEN Broca. Then it would've made sense; you'd have diversity of character as well as actor.

The way it went instead...well, it wasn't nice at all.

It could've gone better had there been appropriate context--unlike the Ligonian culture as it was written, Cardassian culture is VERY well fleshed-out and already known to be multifaceted by that point. But noooooo, they didn't go that route.

I think the key, as this demonstrates, is that you can use actors of whatever skin color you like--but have diversity of character. Have a well-developed, multifaceted society that is more than just a stereotype. Have convincing motives. Make whatever failings there are fall clearly on individuals and the choices they make. If a society is to be multiethnic, do it from the start and cast according to who can pull off the role best; don't try to change gears in Season 7 and wonder why it comes off badly. If a society is NOT to be multiethnic, make DAMN sure your characters are complex and diverse as people--we should be able to put people in of ANY appearance and feel the same about the plot.

If you can't do that, then like "Code of Honor," that's a failure.

 

[DevilEyes]

I agree about how uncomfortable the obvious stereotyping is, in episodes like this and "Up the Long Ladder."

Similarly, for those of you who watch DS9, did any of you notice that while Cardassians were allowed to be played by both white and black actors, the only one played by a black actor to get a speaking role and a name was LEGATE FREAKING BROCA? I think if I'd been the actor, I would've been questioning that, and possibly turned down the role. We should have had proper context before introducing Broca...maybe a run-of-the-mill gul or two, some anti-Dominion rebels, THEN Broca. Then it would've made sense; you'd have diversity of character as well as actor.

I don't think that had any importance, since you couldn't see if the actors were white or black under the makeup. Most people would not even know unless they checked the bio with a picture of the actor, or recognized him from another role. I certainly had no idea until I looked him up on Memory Alpha. Unlike Vulcans or Bajorans, Cardassians were all gray-faced and that was it.

 

[QuasarVM]

I forgot to say I would have had everyone on the planet wearing sombreros...

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I agree about how uncomfortable the obvious stereotyping is, in episodes like this and "Up the Long Ladder."

Similarly, for those of you who watch DS9, did any of you notice that while Cardassians were allowed to be played by both white and black actors, the only one played by a black actor to get a speaking role and a name was LEGATE FREAKING BROCA? I think if I'd been the actor, I would've been questioning that, and possibly turned down the role. We should have had proper context before introducing Broca...maybe a run-of-the-mill gul or two, some anti-Dominion rebels, THEN Broca. Then it would've made sense; you'd have diversity of character as well as actor.

The way it went instead...well, it wasn't nice at all.

It could've gone better had there been appropriate context--unlike the Ligonian culture as it was written, Cardassian culture is VERY well fleshed-out and already known to be multifaceted by that point. But noooooo, they didn't go that route.

I think the key, as this demonstrates, is that you can use actors of whatever skin color you like--but have diversity of character. Have a well-developed, multifaceted society that is more than just a stereotype. Have convincing motives. Make whatever failings there are fall clearly on individuals and the choices they make. If a society is to be multiethnic, do it from the start and cast according to who can pull off the role best; don't try to change gears in Season 7 and wonder why it comes off badly. If a society is NOT to be multiethnic, make DAMN sure your characters are complex and diverse as people--we should be able to put people in of ANY appearance and feel the same about the plot.

If you can't do that, then like "Code of Honor," that's a failure.

I liked Legate Broca....

...(and yes, I actually noticed he WAS portrayed by a black actor initially...i.e. 'Benny' from Total Recall)...

...and I liked what happened to the character seeing that he--like Dukat--thought working for the Dominion was going to benefit him...

I forgot to say I would have had everyone on the planet wearing sombreros...

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I would have had Lutan say the line

"Yousa no thinken yousa greater then the Ligons? Mesa like this. Maybe wesa being friends."


Then I would have him offer the group a 7-Up, call it the Un-Cola, and laugh a deep laugh.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

I would have had Lutan say the line

"Yousa no thinken yousa greater then the Ligons? Mesa like this. Maybe wesa being friends."


Then I would have him offer the group a 7-Up, call it the Un-Cola, and laugh a deep laugh.

LOL

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

IIRC GR Removed the Director of Code of Honor due to how GR thought/felt the director was putting a Racial slant on the episode they replaced him.

So Code of Honor COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE; this is one situation where GR's NEED to Control ALL Things Trek was a GOOD thing

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I agree about how uncomfortable the obvious stereotyping is, in episodes like this and "Up the Long Ladder."

Similarly, for those of you who watch DS9, did any of you notice that while Cardassians were allowed to be played by both white and black actors, the only one played by a black actor to get a speaking role and a name was LEGATE FREAKING BROCA? I think if I'd been the actor, I would've been questioning that, and possibly turned down the role. We should have had proper context before introducing Broca...maybe a run-of-the-mill gul or two, some anti-Dominion rebels, THEN Broca. Then it would've made sense; you'd have diversity of character as well as actor.

I don't think that had any importance, since you couldn't see if the actors were white or black under the makeup. Most people would not even know unless they checked the bio with a picture of the actor, or recognized him from another role. I certainly had no idea until I looked him up on Memory Alpha. Unlike Vulcans or Bajorans, Cardassians were all gray-faced and that was it.

I could tell very easily, but that's partly because when you learn how to draw people, you get into the habit of taking in the facial contours and such that you would need to draw them, even if you don't actually do a drawing. I find the details of faces fascinating and as such I exclusively draw people.

I was not as good at telling where the actors came from, under their makeup, until I started taking drawing very seriously and had to study how to properly draw people from various places around the world.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I would have had Lutan say the line

"Yousa no thinken yousa greater then the Ligons? Mesa like this. Maybe wesa being friends."


Then I would have him offer the group a 7-Up, call it the Un-Cola, and laugh a deep laugh.

Geoffrey Holder...

IIRC GR Removed the Director of Code of Honor due to how GR thought/felt the director was putting a Racial slant on the episode they replaced him.

So Code of Honor COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE; this is one situation where GR's NEED to Control ALL Things Trek was a GOOD thing

Interesting....

I didn't know that.

 

[FormerLurker]

Apropos of nothing:

Geoffrey Holder would have made a really cool Klingon.