if only they had asked you before putting out this 3-book series to do just that, you could have told them this and saved everyone so much trouble
Spoilers Coda Trilogy Discussion Thread
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Well, in his defense, I don't think he was saying the 'alternate universes' idea should never be done. He's written stories that uses that himself from time to time, like the DTI novels.
I think what he's saying is it's not necessary to use it to explain away every inconsistency, and at times it shouldn't be. Sometimes something just isn't going to fit together no matter how hard you try.
Exactly. Alternate timelines are a story device used within some stories. They're not some universal metafictional paradigm that needs to be imposed on stories that weren't intended for it, whether it makes sense or not. It's a poorer fit for some works than for others.
well yes, i wouldnt suggest being pedantic and derail the story saying... "ooh, ok, well Marshak/Culbreath are in Splinter-616, Shadow Lord by Lawrence Yep is in Splinter-47..".. but if they'd left it more open-ended one could just assume that the various contradictory works were living off on their own little legends universe somewhere.
this was actually done, with all the contradictory mirror universes - and they left it vague where they simply observed, very briefly, a parallel mirror universe that never saw the Terran Empire fall, implying it could be the Dark Mirror hardcover, but not specifying such - so it didnt try to get super metafictional and pigeonhole another author's story, but neither did they discount one from imagining it might be
I recognize the functional aspects of what Coda erases and shuts down, I'm saying that, starting from the blank page and conceptualizing what the shape of the last litverse story should be, to make it a satisfying finale, I would've tried to define the shape of the overall story this was a finale to. I suppose in a sense it'd be more like writing a biopic than a traditional finale, having a big pile of events and then having to find a narrative arc running through them, but the key part in this case would probably be defining the bookends. Is Coda an ending just to these books (and then, which? Are Vanguard, RoTF, or New Frontier included)? To all Trek books? To (a version) of all the 24th century shows and stories? To all of Trek? They're all viable creative approaches (depending on licensor approval). Personally, I would've tried for a "this is the grand finale of 55 years of Star Trek" in a sort of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" kind of way, but, again, I have no idea if it was mandatory that Coda had to somehow tie-in with or establish its own illegitimacy compared to the P+ shows. I'd rather we just pretended this take on Star Trek came to a conclusion without an external influence forcing it, and then the streaming shows picked up the story from an earlier point in a new direction, like Superman Returns or a Terminator sequel. That's very much impossible with the ending we got.
I thought it was more or less inferred what was wiped out, that is the ongoing litverse including novels taking place after First Contact that were part of the ongoing relaunch storylines. I would assume that includes prior novels 'retroactively' added to the relaunch continuity, like The Genesis Wave trilogy I mentioned. They weren't originally written with an ongoing continuity in mind, but were retroactively included in it.
Now for any standalones that might happen to take place in during that period but not technically part of the relaunches, well I guess that's up to the reader. For instance what about the New Frontier series? Personally I consider them part of that same continuity (even if there are some things that don't fit all that great). But others may disagree. I get the impression that they are treated only as loosely tied to the relaunches.
One thing that seemed to be clear to me though, is that this 'splinter' timeline had a firm starting point at the 24th century in the Borg controlled timeline (which would be the same year as the First Contact in the then present TNG timeline). It was my impression that anything taking place before that would be unaffected by the erasing of the 'splinter timeline.'
I guess I'm missing your point then
There are times that yes, it might make sense to use an alternate universe explanation when reconciling things that don't fit in the continuity. The longer and more established the continuity, the more reason you may have for using that, like they did with Coda.
But there are times when it just can't work. Like what Christopher mentioned about earlier tie-ins having the original series take place in the early 23rd century (and some cases late 22nd century). There's just no way to make that work that makes logical sense so it's just best to treat it as a separate work. Or if it's just a novel or two. I think volume probably would play a role as well. The more books with a linked continuity, the more it might make sense to treat it as an alternate universe. Perhaps like Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels (though I'm still more inclined to treat that as just an alternate work than an alternate universe, though she did include some elements of what we learned about Romulans in TNG in her later novels where it fit her story so you could make a fair argument it's an alternate universe).
If it makes sense for the story, and it's a story someone wants to tell, then go for it. That was one element of Coda that I didn't have a problem with. I figured the best way to treat the litverse was as an alternate universe to Picard. There was no way to reconcile them narratively. I noted before, even though I know it's not the case, but that it almost seemed the showrunners went out of their way to make it irreconcilable with the nonvelverse. I know that's not how it works but I have yet to see anything that is consistent between the two other than the obvious main characters from the shows being part of both. I mean, you'd think just sheer chance, or even just plain odds, would have something that could work in both universes. But nothing does.
Because I'm contrarian, and because of my noted dislike for Picard, I personally came to treat the litverse as the prime timeline and the Picard timeline as the alternate timeline (though I recognize that is not how things will ever work in Star Trek). Of course I saw that crash and burn with Coda.
I assumed that the First Contact point of divergence was chosen because New Frontier's main story starts shortly afterwards and New Frontier was the first original novel series.
Could be. That would make sense.
Oh, I dunno. There are so many possible directions to take a fictional continuity that I don't think it's unlikely for two versions to be that different by sheer chance. For instance, just look at the incompatible ways that different novels and comics have depicted the Mirror Universe, or the Earth-Romulan War.
If anything, the main difference is that the books weren't able to address the 2387 supernova and Picard was. So Picard was able to develop the aftermath of that event directly, while the books had to find other, unrelated topics to tell stories about. So essentially that means it's the books that went out of their way to avoid something that Picard was able to lean directly into.
Similarly, as licensed works, the books had to maintain a certain status quo -- you could shuffle characters around, but you had to keep Picard as captain of the Enterprise. The show wasn't under that limitation.
On that, we can agree.
Indeed, that's a lot for a Trek story (of any kind) to grapple with. As thematic material goes, it's an awkward fit for an ensemble-cast, action-adventure format set in an optimistic future.
Hear, hear. There should be (should have been) some more significant sense of closure.
I agree. A trilogy gives you about a thousand pages to work with, give or take. That's a lot of narrative space, and more pages could easily have been devoted to material that involved (again) actual emotional closure rather than many, many (many many many) iterations of fights with murderous space snakes.
This post is a thought-provoking, intelligent take on this trilogy; thanks for posting!
Stories have shapes; they make promises. This story isn't a resolution to any previously established conflict; it isn't a thematic answer to any question the earlier books posed.
All Good Things didn't resolve every open plot thread in TNG; not even close. But it felt like a resolution anyway for so many reasons - explicitly calling back to the premier and re-framing it, explicitly answering the questions the premier posed, and even providing a resolution with Picard joining the poker game that let the episode mark an important moment of change in the lead's perspective on life.
Coda did none of that; it's not even clear what story it's trying to be an end to. You nailed something by pointing this out that didn't quite crystallize for me, my own long thoughts on each novel notwithstanding.
The question it answered is instead utterly banal; if given no other viable option anyway, will our heroes be heroic? Well ... yeah? So what?
Thanks! It helps that that was the third or four attempt I made to write that post since the last time I went ten rounds in the "Coda: Good?" octagon a few months ago, but I kept deciding I didn't have the emotional bandwidth to get sucked in again. Maybe I should do repeated word-one rewrites of all my posts for a few weeks before making them, really whip them into shape.
yeah, but by allowing the splintering to roll back to the past portion of First Contact, in 2063, then they also could have had a more comprehensive connection to Destiny, since the events of Erika Hernandez's Columbia NX-02 would be dragged in, being 100yrs after First Contact's 2060s and 200yrs before 2373
I mean, as bad as relaunches got when they lost direction, everyone still loves Destiny and it would have given the story a bit of punch to close that circle - defining why that timeline was special? because it was a full circle back to Mack's acclaimed opus.
Well, I suppose. Guess the litverse and Picard covered completely different story aspects. It's a shame the books couldn't address the supernova at all. I kept thinking what great stories could be told about the impact that would have on the quadrant and how that would impact the Typhon Pact. How would the Federation have helped the Romulan Empire in that universe, esp. considering some of the thawing in relations between the two? And how might the Typhon Pact help and what kind of issues would there be when you think about how the Breen and Tzenkethi (and even the Tholians to some extent) were vying for influence in the Pact last we saw them? There's undoubtedly a great story to be told there and it seems like it will end up like the Romulan War. An event that has significant impacts on the quadrant that we will never see in detail on screen (though perhaps like the Romulan War someday some novel may come out after the show is over to cover it in more detail). I have to admit to being a bit surprised Picard did not cover that a bit more.
Yeah, absolutely. I'll give them credit for bringing in all the relaunches as much as possible, including DS9. And I realize they couldn't give closure to every storyline out there. No finale, no matter how far in advance you know, can achieve it to that extent. But everyone knew this was the litverse finale. So expecting a satisfying closure (not the same as a perfect closure) is not unreasonable.
I do give credit to the writers for wanting to close out the story instead of just leaving it hang (sort of like how I heard Star Wars did things with their ongoing novel storylines). And credit to S&S, and even Paramount, for going ahead with it considering the litverse was not at all consistent with Picard. They all could have just said it's over, move on. I just was disappointed with the story, sad to say, because the 3 of them are otherwise excellent Star Trek writers.
Well, it might have been a bit different there since they already knew TNG wasn't actually ending, it was just transitioning to the movies. So there probably wasn't any great push to give a true finale. But you're right, as finales go it did what you'd want a finale to do.
I got the distinct impression that the 'erasing' of the timelines was for anything set in the novelverse from 2373 on. I never got the impression they intended on taking that back all the way to 2063.The splintering happened when the Borg attempted to take down the Enterprise in the Borg universe of 2373. I think they wanted to keep it focused on litverse stories. Even that was a bit farther back than I would expect since there aren't too many litverse stories between First Contact and Insurrection that I would consider part of the relaunch timelines. IIRC, the Genesis Wave trilogy was post-Insurrection, which seem to be, along with the DS9 relaunches (also post-Insurrection), the start of the relaunch storyline.
i spit out my Earl Grey at this one, thank you for putting that feeling into words!... since the last time I went ten rounds in the "Coda: Good?" octagon a few months ago, but I kept deciding I didn't have the emotional bandwidth to get sucked in again...
Yes i know. i was referring to that fact. they chose to make that the cutoff and i recognize that. I'm saying they could have easily chosen differently, involved more stories and consequences for dramatic effect, by dint of the fact that the moment of divergence was the precise moment they were traveling between 2063 and 2373
There are litverse stories taking place before 2373. prominently, the 22nd century portions of Destiny.
Well, of course at the end of the day there are many different paths they could have taken. They could have used the Krenim instead of the Devidians. So that's always true. I think they felt the Borg attack of 2373 gave them an opportunity to 'erase' the litverse timeline at a point that covers all of the 24th century litverse. The starting point is not firm. I mentioned my opinion where it seems to start, but others may differ on that. But 2373 is early enough that it seems to cover 99% of what the litverse covered.
True. And there are the Enterprise relaunch novels that for now seem mostl unaffected by any of the current running shows, except maybe the angles involving Section 31. The Columbia's fate was included within the relaunch storyline in Enterprise (and their loss was mentioned at one point in the Romulan War novels). It's probably the one relaunch that could theoretically continue at some point in the future, unless a future episode or show makes that impossible as well. But in theory those events still happened if you follow that relaunch, just without the Caeliar intervention to free the Borg in 2381.
again, my point. after how dismal the whole affair was, i would have appreciated it if they'd taken steps to erase even more of the Columbia and Section 31 backstory — to give us more assurance that none of that nonsense will ever come around again
this might actually have cascaded through in-universe somehow already. after all, the Borg timeline Queen didnt remember when Picard addressed her by the Caeliar name
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Well I'm afraid I'm on the opposite side of that. I loved the litverse so I'd prefer none of it was erased.
Since the novelverse ties into all eras, I like to think of it all as the first splinter. Just look at how Picard season 2 had Picard and Guinan meet for the "first" time in 2024, because "Time's Arrow" never happened even though the timelines branch/splinter/whatever in 2024. It makes little sense, but apply that logic to Columbia NX-02 and Destiny for a second and that folds in almost everything in book form from ENT onwards. Which makes everything a lot cleaner for when TV Trek says or does something that nukes the novelverse Romulan war. And it can explain hundreds of discrepancies, like Pike being adopted in "Burning Dreams", we can even suggest the U.S.S. Franklin from Star Trek Beyond is a similar backward-affecting artifact of the Kelvin timeline and that's why the first warp 5 ship never mentioned the first warp 4 ship in ENT.
