Spoilers Coda Trilogy Discussion Thread

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Like any Star Trek novels, the quality varies from one to another, and there's really no objective way to assess it (somebody, somewhere, is bound to actually like Marshak & Culbreath's stuff, and at one point, I actually liked Cogswell & Spano's Spock:Messiah; likewise, somebody, somewhere, is bound to hate the works of Mr. Bennett and/or those of Mr. Cox). In the "autobiography-verse," I greatly preferred Ms. McCormack's works over those of Mr. Goodman, and downright despised the Kirk "autobiography."

I found some of the works in the "First Splinter" novelverse to be magnificent, while I found others to be very tiresome, and still others to be downright unpleasant. And on the whole, I found that there were more that I liked than there were that I didn't. And the fact that it just went out with a tremendous bang doesn't change any of that.

Some of us like the fact that three of the best authors currently writing ST fiction decided to give the "First Splinter" Novelverse closure in the form of a big, harrowing finale (I wonder what Messrs. Bennett and Cox would have come up with, if they'd been invited to participate, and had accepted). Some of us (a very vocal minority, I would judge, comparing the poll numbers to the volume of remarks) hated it. My own response has been given.

So read what you see fit to read. But while there's a chance that CODA will invalidate all the "First Splinter" books for you, there's also a chance that it will make them all the more meaningful. And most likely of all, your opinion on how meaningful they are, either individually or as a collection, won't change much at all.

 

[Voth commando1]

So does anyone just not acknowledge the Coda series in their personal headcanons?

I'm inclined not too, but I realize that's just projected wish fulfillment on my part.

For my part, I only read Destiny and I believe Rise like Lions.

To be honest, I'd have preferred it not be written as it is, why did I read and get invested in Destiny at all?

“When we first started to get a sense of just what was involved in realigning the book lines with the new shows, we said we don’t want to do a Star Wars. We definitely don’t want to tell people who’ve been buying these books for 20 years, “None of this counts, none of this matters, you wasted all your time and your money. Oh, and by the way, buy our new books which are tied back into the show now!” How do you sell that? You don’t.”

I was as devastated at legends de canonization as anyone. Probably more than most. But I am still a SW EU fan. I have my little fanfic I write(that no one reads) and still regularly discuss it with other like minded people.

Looking at the TVtropes page, I’m sorry this just doesn’t work for me. I was never super invested into the Trekverse but I followed it with measured interest and indeed some investment.

It would have been much much better to leave it hanging, so the fans could imagine their own outcomes, as opposed to “blow it all up”.

I realize it’s much easier to do this in Trek than in SW, but this just feels mean spirited, in a way an eternal dangling timeline does not.

Because blowing up the timeline is telling these people “none of it matters, you wasted your time and money, it all amounts to nothing” also “oh and all the characters you were invested die to save the new show timeline, that you may or may not care about” (I certainly don’t).

Did the writers of Coda not consider that this might be taken as offensive or at least insensitive by the readers?

 

[The Wormhole]

So does anyone just not acknowledge the Coda series in their personal headcanons?

I'm inclined not too, but I realize that's just projected wish fulfillment on my part.

For my part, I only read Destiny and I believe Rise like Lions.

To be honest, I'd have preferred it not be written as it is, why did I read and get invested in Destiny at all?

“When we first started to get a sense of just what was involved in realigning the book lines with the new shows, we said we don’t want to do a Star Wars. We definitely don’t want to tell people who’ve been buying these books for 20 years, “None of this counts, none of this matters, you wasted all your time and your money. Oh, and by the way, buy our new books which are tied back into the show now!” How do you sell that? You don’t.”

I was as devastated at legends de canonization as anyone. Probably more than most. But I am still a SW EU fan. I have my little fanfic I write(that no one reads) and still regularly discuss it with other like minded people.

Looking at the TVtropes page, I’m sorry this just doesn’t work for me. I was never super invested into the Trekverse but I followed it with measured interest and indeed some investment.

It would have been much much better to leave it hanging, so the fans could imagine their own outcomes, as opposed to “blow it all up”.

I realize it’s much easier to do this in Trek than in SW, but this just feels mean spirited, in a way an eternal dangling timeline does not.

Because blowing up the timeline is telling these people “none of it matters, you wasted your time and money, it all amounts to nothing” also “oh and all the characters you were invested die to save the new show timeline, that you may or may not care about” (I certainly don’t).

Did the writers of Coda not consider that this might be taken as offensive or at least insensitive by the readers?

Even as someone who has voiced issues about the Coda trilogy and the belief that it would have been better to leave the Litverse dangling like the Star Wars Legends continuity was, I see the rationale in doing Coda the way they did. Star Trek fandom does not get subtlety. Just look at how many people believed ever since the end of Disco season 2 that the trip to the 32nd century would only be a temporary one, and the amount of people who still believe that a return to the 23rd century before the show ends is inevitable. Or, on the novel front, there's the people who misunderstood the Enterprise novels reinterpreting TATV as ignoring TATV and now have the belief the novels should be allowed to similarly "ignore" the new shows as they see fit. I believe the only way a finale to the Litverse was going to get a greenlight was if it was such a finale that it categorically, definitively and without question whatsoever ended the Litverse continuity with no possibility of continuing, which is why we got the "blow it all up and then prevent it from ever existing." Likewise, they probably wanted to avoid a "Bring Back the Litverse" campaign for Star Trek much like Star Wars fans have had a "Bring Back Legends" campaign going ever since 2014.

So while I do feel Collateral Damage or To Lose the Earth would have been better books to end the Litverse on, I can see the desire to go with something that definitively stated "The End" with no room for interpretation, which is why we got Coda.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Somewhere, Richard Arnold's ghost is dancing at the idea of the novelverse destroying and erasing itself.

We've seen dozens of timelines "erased" in Trek before, it didn't make what those adventures any less real than any others. "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "All Good Things" are two of TNG's finest moments, and neither timeline survived the episode and none of the regular characters ever knew they happened (with the exceptions of Picard and Guinan)

 

[Starbreaker]

Because blowing up the timeline is telling these people “none of it matters, you wasted your time and money, it all amounts to nothing” also “oh and all the characters you were invested die to save the new show timeline, that you may or may not care about” (I certainly don’t).

Did the writers of Coda not consider that this might be taken as offensive or at least insensitive by the readers?

This is what people said about the 2009 movie, that everything they liked that came before had been erased because of this branching timeline. Every single piece of Star Trek media from 1966 can still be found. You'll still be able to go back and enjoy all the Litverse novels that you like. At least this gets rid of the false hope that the Litverse is coming back someday.

 

[dupersuper]

This is what people said about the 2009 movie, that everything they liked that came before had been erased because of this branching timeline. Every single piece of Star Trek media from 1966 can still be found.

Beyond that, they make a point in the movie of saying that's not what happened.

 

[thribs]

I enjoyed the first two parts but when they found out they weren’t the main timeline and decided to sacrifice themselves for the prime timeline, it became less interesting for me.
I would have preferred the novelVerse to have a ending like Star Trek VI rather than utter destruction.
More universes would have been good as well. Like I said in the other thread, I would have liked the ShatnerVerse and JJVerse to play a part.

 

[Voth commando1]

Even as someone who has voiced issues about the Coda trilogy and the belief that it would have been better to leave the Litverse dangling like the Star Wars Legends continuity was, I see the rationale in doing Coda the way they did. Star Trek fandom does not get subtlety. Just look at how many people believed ever since the end of Disco season 2 that the trip to the 32nd century would only be a temporary one, and the amount of people who still believe that a return to the 23rd century before the show ends is inevitable. Or, on the novel front, there's the people who misunderstood the Enterprise novels reinterpreting TATV as ignoring TATV and now have the belief the novels should be allowed to similarly "ignore" the new shows as they see fit. I believe the only way a finale to the Litverse was going to get a greenlight was if it was such a finale that it categorically, definitively and without question whatsoever ended the Litverse continuity with no possibility of continuing, which is why we got the "blow it all up and then prevent it from ever existing." Likewise, they probably wanted to avoid a "Bring Back the Litverse" campaign for Star Trek much like Star Wars fans have had a "Bring Back Legends" campaign going ever since 2014.

So while I do feel Collateral Damage or To Lose the Earth would have been better books to end the Litverse on, I can see the desire to go with something that definitively stated "The End" with no room for interpretation, which is why we got Coda.

Are you claiming the rationale explicitly was for this purpose, or that it serves this purpose?

nd now have the belief the novels should be allowed to similarly "ignore" the new shows as they see fit.

That's not really a belief, misconceived or otherwise, it's a personal preference.

Likewise, they probably wanted to avoid a "Bring Back the Litverse" campaign for Star Trek much like Star Wars fans have had a "Bring Back Legends" campaign going ever since 2014.

I have read no evidence of that, and even so, that seems...hostile? Like, destroying the novelverse simply to ensure a small fan movement doesn't emerge? Does that not strike you as mean spirited and supremely cynical? Not to mention, the Trek litverse has a much much smaller fandom than the old EU did(who were themselves a tiny portion of all SW fans). The possibility of such a thing was and is minimal.

So while I do feel Collateral Damage or To Lose the Earth would have been better books to end the Litverse on, I can see the desire to go with something that definitively stated "The End" with no room for interpretation, which is why we got Coda.

"“When we first started to get a sense of just what was involved in realigning the book lines with the new shows, we said we don’t want to do a Star Wars. We definitely don’t want to tell people who’ve been buying these books for 20 years, “None of this counts, none of this matters, you wasted all your time and your money. Oh, and by the way, buy our new books which are tied back into the show now!” How do you sell that? You don’t.”

What your saying and the above quote don't remotely go together. In fact they contradict. If anything, a definitive ending is an even harder slap in the face than a dangling timeline.

This is what people said about the 2009 movie, that everything they liked that came before had been erased because of this branching timeline. Every single piece of Star Trek media from 1966 can still be found. You'll still be able to go back and enjoy all the Litverse novels that you like. At least this gets rid of the false hope that the Litverse is coming back someday.

That doesn't remotely address my point though. It's not about whether the Litverse will come back (clearly not if only for economic reasons-too much expenditure to sustain a separate continuity from the new shows for a small audience and thus not near enough ROI). Why should anyone "go back and enjoy it all" when they know it all ends like this? Why get invested in a story like Destiny, or the Andorian secession arc, or what have you with this outcome? At least with Legends the fate of the surviving characters and unresolved plotlines is open for the fans who care to decide on their own. Why should the people who were invested in the aforementioned plots not feel they wasted time and money, and not feel personally slighted as well?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Why should anyone "go back and enjoy it all" when they know it all ends like this? Why get invested in a story like Destiny, or the Andorian secession arc, or what have you with this outcome?

Me for one. As said above, I think the definite and tragic end gives what preceeds it greater meaning. And I am going back and filling in the gaps.

Look at all the TV shows that were cancelled with unresolved plot threads. This is no different.

 

[Christopher]

Why get invested in a story like Destiny, or the Andorian secession arc, or what have you with this outcome?

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." -- Orson Welles

Everybody's story ends eventually. You can enjoy, say, Casablanca or Raiders of the Lost Ark without stopping to think, "Every character in this movie would be long dead by now." You don't worry about what happens afterward because you're immersed in the moment. And that's what fiction is supposed to do. If you're in the middle of watching or reading a story and all you're thinking of is what comes later, then the story has failed to immerse you in the moment.

 

[Voth commando1]

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." -- Orson Welles

Everybody's story ends eventually. You can enjoy, say, Casablanca or Raiders of the Lost Ark without stopping to think, "Every character in this movie would be long dead by now." You don't worry about what happens afterward because you're immersed in the moment. And that's what fiction is supposed to do. If you're in the middle of watching or reading a story and all you're thinking of is what comes later, then the story has failed to immerse you in the moment.

I’d say I was more invested in the setting at least as far as the novelverse was concerned than the characters as individuals. Where would the Typhon Pact end up, would the dominion ever join the federation, that sort of thing.

The setting-as-story I suppose is my particular jam. So this decision is something that grieves me a lot.

Me for one. As said above, I think the definite and tragic end gives what preceeds it greater meaning. And I am going back and filling in the gaps.

Look at all the TV shows that were cancelled with unresolved plot threads. This is no different.

How do the sacrifices of destiny and the rest have any meaning at all when the timeline is destroyed? That’s just nonsensical.

 

[ToddCam]

Somewhere, Richard Arnold's ghost is dancing at the idea of the novelverse destroying and erasing itself.

We've seen dozens of timelines "erased" in Trek before, it didn't make what those adventures any less real than any others. "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "All Good Things" are two of TNG's finest moments, and neither timeline survived the episode and none of the regular characters ever knew they happened (with the exceptions of Picard and Guinan)

Exceptions being pretty key here. And I doubt Picard kept the AGT a secret. And Picard learned of the YE events from Sela, so likely has everyone else.

I'd also say they do seem less real in a way. The YE timeline was never going to be the permanent timeline we followed on the show. I felt almost nothing when those versions of the characters died, and I was 13 or so and lacked cynicism. (I remember feeling genuine fear that Picard was gonna die after Riker gave the Fire command in BoBW just a few weeks later.)

Edit: To be clear, I am not proscribing anyone's interpretation of the lives of fictional characters. Just giving my perspective.

 

[Voth commando1]

Well, as far as I’m concerned I don’t acknowledge Coda as part of my preferred headcanon. Or at least I’ll try not to acknowledge it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

How do the sacrifices of destiny and the rest have any meaning at all when the timeline is destroyed? That’s just nonsensical.

Because we're arguing imaginary stories. None of it really happened, so erased or not, the efforts and sacrifices counted.

I'm sure countless trillions appreciated six years without the Borg.

 

[Krupp]

Late to the party as it took me a while to get through #3, but here's my reflection on the Coda series after being with Treklit all the way since the re-launch and before...

Firstly, I want to thank the authors for getting us a wrap up. I was very much not in favour of leaving the TrekLit universe we have invested so much time into as a fandom just wither. And the results of that wrap up would never satisfy everyone. But the effort - and all the years of efforts - are much appreciated. Thank you and your fellow authors who have given us this.

As to the trilogy itself, I can't say I enjoyed it, from two perspectives... One is general to the world and the other specific to Trek. The books were well written, and I won't argue over the plot points, I want to be a bit meta here.

I think the authors sat down and thrashed out a very interesting premise over a few beers, that is probably an exciting once-in-a-franchise-writers-lifetime opportunity, but which doesn't really hit the right note in the final analysis.

The Undiscovered Country 30th anniversary was recent enough and I saw the teaser trailer posted about a few times. It's a great watch. Christopher Plummer narrates "For one quarter of a century they have thrilled us with their adventures... We have travelled beside them from one corner of the galaxy to the other... Now you are invited to join them for one last adventure." The movie ends with "Second star to the right, and straight on till morning" followed by the captains log, "This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries. Boldly going where no man... Where no one... Has gone before."

You can't repeat quite that line in a timeline adventure story, but the sentiment is apt, it's hopeful, and it's more where I think the Coda series should have gone.

Trek specifically has never really been about the bleak no win scenario - not for real. The universe TrekLit inhabits where we have got proper endings, the world from The Motion Picture to Nemesis with all the TV shows in between, every single ending of a movie or a series has been on a hopeful note. Be it the Enterprise sailing off "Thataway" or "Never saw the sun, shining so bright" in the movies, or "So, five-card stud, nothing wild... and the sky's the limit"... They end on a positive, forward looking note. Even the arguably darkest Trek productions ended on a hopeful note. TWOK ("Young, I feel young") and, arguably, DS9 ("The more things change, the more they stay the same").

The world in general has been a pretty difficult place over the past two years in particular. A story where every victory can result in two steps back in a world of Delta, Omicron and everything else just didn't hit right for me at this moment in time, I have to say. Trek has been a source of succor during this time and Coda was just hard work to get through.

So... Thanks for all the adventures and thanks for getting us a wrap up story, it is really appreciated. Onwards now to enjoy hopefully some great new adventures alongside the TV productions - I've already enjoyed a few of them, and started out in trek lit during the runs of TNG, DS9 et al and really do enjoy the tie ins. We got something unique and special in the Trek Lit universe, some out there things that worked really well and some great adventures. Here's to the next twenty plus years of it.

 

[RonG]

My sentiments echo many of those expressed above (by Krupp and others).
As mentioned in another Coda thread, there ae many things I would have done (or wished the authors had approached) differently, but I appreciate first and foremost the effort, the skill and the pathos of what we did get.

In short, the litverse ('First Splinter') characters made more than-the-ultimate sacrifice for all other realities and timelines to live - they chose to negate their own existance for everyhting and everyone else. This actually validated their tales (as they made sure the on-screen canon did happen), rather than invalidate them.

Also, as Christopher said, the events themselves did 'happen', erased perhaps only from a 3-dimensional POV\thinking -- the ending shows us that the events are remembered, at least on some levels \planes of existance.

That said, and being the hopeless romantic optimist that I am, I would have loved an extra chapter / scene, tucked between chapters 39 and 40 of Book 3 -

Spoiler: an idea I had to bridge these two chapters

As chapter 40 details realities and timelines converge into (the mind of) PIC's Picard, and chapter 39 ends with basically 'the great white light' moment, I would have LOVED an appearance by Q betweeen these chapters, mentioning how all the higher life forms (mentioned earlier in the trilogy as 'missing') basically did in fact separate this Splinter from the main timeline in order to preserve the timeline where in which the children of the Q and Omega came to be (Kirsten Beyer's Atonement) and the timeline in which They were stopped (KRAD's Q&A) - and in doing so left it (and its Mirror univeerse) separate from the Prime Timeline multiverse, with a new past - allowing for the pre-FC events to be part of the same timeline (i.e., the 22nd century ENT relaunch and past elements of Destiny, the 23rd century VAN and Seekers series, etc).

This would have left me as happy as possible.. and in my headcanon it did happen like that (maybe I'll go ahead and try and write it down..)

 

[David cgc]

Trek specifically has never really been about the bleak no win scenario - not for real. The universe TrekLit inhabits where we have got proper endings, the world from The Motion Picture...

It did occur to me that Coda would've been a place to use the phrase, "The Human Adventure has ended," but, of course, that was already the button on Millennium's end-of-act-2 low-point.

The TUC teaser is something that was in my mind when I was talking about the rare opportunity to conclude an ongoing epic like Star Trek.

 

[Voth commando1]

Because we're arguing imaginary stories. None of it really happened, so erased or not, the efforts and sacrifices counted.

I'm sure countless trillions appreciated six years without the Borg.

That seems a bit of a red herring. Yes it’s all fiction, but we as readers are invested both financially and psychologically in these narratives, the choices made by this trilogy is a slap in the face. To the reader, as much it devalues the characters and plots within the text.

 

[Tuskin38]

That seems a bit of a red herring. Yes it’s all fiction, but we as readers are invested both financially and psychologically in these narratives, the choices made by this trilogy is a slap in the face. To the reader, as much it devalues the characters and plots within the text.

Maybe for you, but not everyone feels that way.
I read the stories, they happened, I enjoyed them, I enjoyed Coda.

The ending of Coda does not take away that enjoyment from me. All the books still exist on my (virtual) shelf.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Even if they have been wiped from the memory of the universe, they are still remembered by the multiverse.