Spoilers Coda: Book 3: Oblivion's Gate by David Mack Review Thread

[David cgc]

So, according to the logic of Coda, is it feasible that the JJverse timeline shouldn't exist or is that something we're not supposed to think about?

I don't think that's the case. The event that created the First Splinter was a very esoteric bit of temporal manipulation designed to keep a timeline born from time-travel from being undone by time-travel. The only way the JJverse would suffer a similar calamity is if someone tried to go back in time and prevent the Narada from encountering the Kelvin, and if someone else from within the JJverse tried to prevent the first party from going back in time with a Krenim-style history-erasing gun.

Oh, I just remembered a question I had. What happened to the Borg Sphere that wasn't followed by the Enterprise-E that led to it being destroyed and only a couple of damaged drones surviving? I assumed that it was shot down by one of the remaining governments or militaries once someone noticed something in orbit bombing the middle of Montana for no apparent reason (but too late to prevent the ship from killing Cochrane or destroying the Phoenix), but I was expecting a little bit of clarification or a more overt hint about exactly what happened.

 

[thribs]

JJVerse was the first to go. That’s why we haven’t heard anything from it

 

[Ronald Held]

I would ask why entangle the PU and MU Litverse.

 

[Enterpriserules]

I have to say, talking to David changed my opinion about the book. I can't wait for y'all to hear the interview on Sunday!

 

[Ben]

I have to say, talking to David changed my opinion about the book. I can't wait for y'all to hear the interview on Sunday!

Looking forward to it!

 

[captainmkb]

Seems self explanatory. What we see on Disco is The Mirror Universe, while what's been featured in the novels is a Mirror Universe connected to the First Splinter.

Discovery also establishes "branching" in the mirror universe(s) -- first it is mentioned that the mirror universe begins to diverge away from the prime universe due to the two crossing over - and then the Guardian of Forever spawns another branch to give Georgiou a chance to reunite with the mirror universe - so now there are two major branches splitting from that point - one where prime Discovery sets off the destruction of mirror access to mycelial space to defeat Lorca, and a second branch where everyone succumbs to infighting over mirror Michael's betrayal of Georgiou. calls into question which branch we contact when next the mirror is crossed

 

[Orion's Belt 27]

So all in all, mixed feelings. I've digested the ramifications of this book all day, and there is still so much more to say (and still to think about) about how I want this story to fit into my head canon, how the ramifications of this will influence the future of my website, how the ramifications of this will play out with the Star Trek Timeliners and our continued project, and where my overall Star Trek fandom goes from here. Last night was, in a very real way, the end of Star Trek for me.

When I saw this, @ryan123450, I had a thought pop in my head. Tried to shake it away, thinking, 'No, there's absolutely no way he can make this work' and I don't really like it myself since it makes it final that the LitVerse is over, but it won't leave me alone, so ...

Spoiler

untangle the TNG, DS9, VOY relaunches from their pages and move all those works to a separate tab for the First Splinter Timeline along with New Frontier, Titan and IKS Gorkon. For the TNG works between FC-INS and INS-NEM, use your judgment on those especially with anything that may reference the latter DS9 or VOY seasons. Keep the tab for the Picard works, but add them to the TNG page as well.

 

[ryan123450]

When I saw this, @ryan123450, I had a thought pop in my head. Tried to shake it away, thinking, 'No, there's absolutely no way he can make this work' and I don't really like it myself since it makes it final that the LitVerse is over, but it won't leave me alone, so ...

Spoiler

untangle the TNG, DS9, VOY relaunches from their pages and move all those works to a separate tab for the First Splinter Timeline along with New Frontier, Titan and IKS Gorkon. For the TNG works between FC-INS and INS-NEM, use your judgment on those especially with anything that may reference the latter DS9 or VOY seasons. Keep the tab for the Picard works, but add them to the TNG page as well.

Well, for the most part, the structure of my site is out-of-universe, so having two different timelines won’t cause much of a organizational change right now. But I have…thoughts…about the future.

 

[rfmcdpei]

So, according to the logic of Coda, is it feasible that the JJverse timeline shouldn't exist or is that something we're not supposed to think about?

I do not think so. I have made the argument upthread that the supernova of the Romulan sun did not happen in the novelverse. We have seen no signs of it, after all, definitely not from the Romulans. Thus, the JJverse branches off not from the First Splinter but from the Prime timeline.

 

[Enterpriserules]

I'm editing the Literary Treks episode today and it'll be out tomorrow, why make you wait! So subscribe so you get it as soon as it drops

 

[JoeZhang]

So, according to the logic of Coda, is it feasible that the JJverse timeline shouldn't exist or is that something we're not supposed to think about?

The JJverse was on screen and thus was canon plus it is referenced to in Discovery.

 

[E-DUB]

The JJverse was on screen and thus was canon plus it is referenced to in Discovery.

My argument wasn't as to the canonicity (if that's a word) of the JJverse, but rather related to the circumstance of its genesis (interference from the future).

 

[Christopher]

My argument wasn't as to the canonicity (if that's a word) of the JJverse, but rather related to the circumstance of its genesis (interference from the future).

The Trek timeline as we know it has always been influenced by future interference, e.g. Spock going back to save himself as a child in "Yesteryear" and Kirk & Spock's interference with Gary Seven being part of the events of 1968, plus of course the Temporal Cold War.

 

[rfmcdpei]

My argument wasn't as to the canonicity (if that's a word) of the JJverse, but rather related to the circumstance of its genesis (interference from the future).

The litverse timeline apparently lacked a supernova that would destroy Romulus and devastate the core of the Star Empire in the late 2380s. (There would have been signs aplenty, and it is very deeply unlikely that any of the prominent Romulan leaders we got to know—Tal'Aura, Donatra, Gell Kamemor—would have neglected to do anything about it given their outwards looking policies.) Something else might have happened to the Romulans eventually, but we will never know what.

That litverse timeline ended in Coda, everything being wound back to 2373 and the Prime timeline. A lot of things seem to have gone the same in the two timelines—DS9 in the Alpha Quadrant and Voyager in the Delta Quadrant evolved in the same ways, as did Nemesis and Insurrection—but, just as the butterfly effect holds, small differences in differing timelines built up. In particular, it looks like sometime in the half-dozen years after 2373, something happened that led to Romulus' sun being triggered into an imminent supernova state. It is from this timeline that Spock, followed by Nero, ended up crossing over to the Kelvinverse, after the destruction of Romulus.

 

[ryan123450]

I've slowly read through the first ten pages of this thread over the past couple of days, and have a few new thoughts.

Today I'm feeling like Coda goes in the same category of endings as Lost, HIMYM, Matrix: Revolutions, and Battlestar Galactica. Extremely flawed but I like them for what they are, because that's what we got. And in this case there was a real possibility that we could have never gotten an ending at all, so that makes me all that much more grateful for it.

Upthread several people seemed to lament that in the end we are taken to the Picard timeline instead of ending the story in the "First Splinter". This may have been pointed out at some point of the thread I've not read yet, but setting the epilogue aside, the entire last chapter of this book takes place within the perspective of "First Splinter" Picard. We never actually "leave" the "First Splinter". The whole voyage across Picard's multiple timeline versions takes place within his mind as a result of the antichronoton psychotemporal experience Lal said they would all possibly be subject to given their exposure to temporal radiation in the Borg temporal disruption base. The very last moment of the book is oblivion overtaking Picard as the temporal reset erases him from existence. What he is experiencing at that last moment is a timeline that looks to us like the Picard timeline (and that's obviously the author's intent), but in reality he's still standing in the Devidiian's base. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll also say that reading this thread and listening to the interview on Literary Trek's tomorrow are key parts of my experience of this book, and indeed key parts of my Treklit experience overall. I'm very grateful for this community!

 

[Admiral Rex]

In addition to Literary Treks, Dan Gunther and I will release our nearly 2-hour interview with David Mack on the Positively Trek Book Club podcast on Friday, November 17th, which not only covers Coda but also his work on Star Trek: Prodigy. We discuss some Litverse nuggets that can be found in Prodigy.

(This episode may drop sooner on Patreon along with a bonus discuss about Star Wars Legends.)

 

[ryan123450]

Random question. When Bashir died there was mention of something about him curing some Romulans of a disease on Alhaya, I think. I don’t recall what this was a reference to.

 

[Enterpriserules]

I am so proud of this conversation with David on Literary Treks! It feels like the culmination of years of love, I hope you all enjoy it!

 

[E-DUB]

The Trek timeline as we know it has always been influenced by future interference, e.g. Spock going back to save himself as a child in "Yesteryear" and Kirk & Spock's interference with Gary Seven being part of the events of 1968, plus of course the Temporal Cold War.

Oh, I know. Even the "prime universe" isn't "prime" due to Henry Starling's proliferation of advanced computer tech.

 

[Christopher]

Oh, I know. Even the "prime universe" isn't "prime" due to Henry Starling's proliferation of advanced computer tech.

I'm not convinced of that. I remember John Ordover pointing out that at the conclusion of "Future's End," they prevented Braxton from ever going back in time at all, meaning that none of that ever happened. Of course, "Relativity" then ignored that, but neither episode made a damn bit of sense in its temporal logic, so it's unclear what to believe.