I'm guessing that somebody painted the show into a corner that left Georgiou stuck on board, and the writing staff looking for a way to get rid of her that would set up a spinoff.
And "Ben," don't write off TrekLit prematurely.
Spoilers Coda: Book 3: Oblivion's Gate by David Mack Review Thread
- Thread starter JoeZhang
- Start date
And "Ben," don't write off TrekLit prematurely.
Please no one think I was casting aspersions on TrekLit. It's just that, without this type of continuity, it's likely not going to be my thing. I didn't read TrekLit before this all started (New Frontier lead to the TNG Relaunch which lead to the DS9 relaunch), and I think that there other novels and comics I'm going to want to spend my time on instead. But I'm in no way putting down the quality of the upcoming books or implying any insult to their fans!
It's just a bummer to me. It's very much a finale for this part of my entertainment life.
Bingo
Hey so
The Prophet who spoke to Sisko was definitely in the form of my boy Elias Vaughn, right? I don't think he was ever named outright.
That was definitely my assumption.
As much as its the main characters series, I almost wish we would have seen more of the newer generation of starfleet officers as the ones that saved the day, or at least set up the new timeline. It would have added more weight to the Data/Lal conversation about existing in the new timeline.
To see the litverse characters from the Enterprise/Titan/Aventine/DaVinci/Excalibur band together and know that they where gonna end their existence, that would have had some feeling. Have them express actual fear and doubts, even outright refusal.
Sideline Picard with the temporal disconnect, over fears of losing his own family. Hell, make it so that splinter timeline was one of the few realities where he actually had a family, that would make him a lot more hesitant to erase it.
To see the litverse characters from the Enterprise/Titan/Aventine/DaVinci/Excalibur band together and know that they where gonna end their existence, that would have had some feeling. Have them express actual fear and doubts, even outright refusal.
Sideline Picard with the temporal disconnect, over fears of losing his own family. Hell, make it so that splinter timeline was one of the few realities where he actually had a family, that would make him a lot more hesitant to erase it.
Last edited:
I am interviewing David today, if you have any questions you'd like asked and I can work them in, please let me know!
Is there any character he wished he could have added to Coda?
And why is the answer Kirk?
Last edited:
What was the thought process behind confusing the Borg's origins again?
Was is strictly to "undo" the origins defined in the Destiny trilogy, or was there something deeper that he was trying to achieve with that bit of the story?
That was just a reference to all the Borg origin stories we’ve had over the years
I have two guesses on this. Perhaps it was an attempt to explain why the Caeliar were not a part of this trilogy while the Borg were. The other guess is to nod to other Borg origin stories from sources like Strange New Worlds anthologies and letting them be viable possibilities, too.
I think it was more the latter. Onscreen Trek won’t be able to resist more Borg stuff, and the Destiny origin does take place outside the span encompassed by the First Splinter, so acknowledging the Borg could come from more than one event serves as a preemptive continuity patch.
And the Borg timeline is the place to do it, since there would’ve never been an NX-02 to visit the Caeliar, so their origin would already be on iffy temporal ground (though the Caeliar would also still be in the full flower of their civilization, without the little oopsie the humans caused, so it might not be too bad if the Borg happened to run into them and bite off more than they could chew).
And the Borg timeline is the place to do it, since there would’ve never been an NX-02 to visit the Caeliar, so their origin would already be on iffy temporal ground (though the Caeliar would also still be in the full flower of their civilization, without the little oopsie the humans caused, so it might not be too bad if the Borg happened to run into them and bite off more than they could chew).
I realized a while back that it does kind of make sense that the Borg could have more than one origin. After all, their whole deal is to assimilate other species/technologies and homogenize them with their own. So if there were two (or more) different expansionistic cyborg hive minds coming from separate origins, and they encountered one another, it stands to reason that they'd absorb one another and become one.
But definitely not Swedish. Or Norwegian. Or Danish.
Trek even has depicted that very thing, to a degree. In the TNG comic Assimilation2, the Borg form an alliance with the cybernetic Cybermen. They part ways at the end but a fusion between them is a credible option.
Can you ask about the difference with the mirror universe in the books and Star Trek discovery.
I finished this book last night in what was probably one of the most meaningful reading experiences of my life. Putting the book down at the end literally brought a tear to my eye knowing that what for me was 17 years of life changing reading was now at an end. I've slowly digested it today, only talking to three or four close friends about it a bit. I'm still not ready to dive into reading this massive thread, but I'll post my first flurry of thoughts.
This was my favorite of the trilogy. I've never not loved a David Mack book, and it was no surprise this didn't break that streak. I can see the book's flaws, and I can see the trilogy's flaws which have been talked about in previous discussions. But I am amazingly grateful to have this ending. I can't imagine not having it. All the DS9 plot threads that have ended up staying unresolved will always bother me, and that feeling would have been a hundred times worse without this story.
The preview page certainly set the tone. Insane that we actually saw Earth completely destroyed in a way that *almost* sticks. Not too far into the book we get that info dump scene where my worst fears about this trilogy are locked in. I hate the "We were the alternate universe all along!" decision that was made here. The way that it was decided that the temporal mechanics of this whole situation would function was certainly not the emotionally satisfying way for me. I would have much preferred the Year of Hell version of the reset button to the Deadlock reset version.
And setting the timeline split only fourteen years in the past? I really don't get the thinking there. This was the perfect opportunity to future proof so many continuity issues. Have the split go back to 2063. Any issues between Strange New Worlds and the Lit-verse? Instantly explained. A Romulan War show comes out in the few years? Instantly no problem. A span of over 200 years of history is probably in need of a retcon, so we'll fix 14 years of it and call it good. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. But it is what it is and I'm trying my absolute hardest to take what is good here and focus on it.
Small things I loved... "Shut up Wesley!" Beverly going all action hero on the Borg Queen. Don't mess with her man. Epic deaths and teary goodbyes. So many badass moments towards the end that just kept a grin on my face as our heroes left it all on the field.
Small things I hated... Picard hearing the Borg in his mind after his Caeliar transformation. COrrective Disruptive Action? No. No. Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. No. Hell no. No. No. I refuse. No.
And just like I guaranteed, even in the face of @David Mack calling me out on my declaration, the plot to save the universe played out very much with the same vibe as the end of Lost season 5. Going out guns blazing on a daring and risky half baked plan to erase their pasts so as to create a brighter future that they will never see. It even played so true to form that at the start of Chapter 40 when we begin a wild ride that at first we don't know what to make of, my initial thought was "This sure don't look like LAX!"
But once it was "clear" what Chapter 40 was doing, I sunk in and enjoyed the final moments of the Litverse. And they were beautiful. Accepting there had to be end despite me wanting it to go on, accepting that we would be left with the Kurtzman version of Trek despite me preferring the Lit-verse, accepting that my heroes had been relegated to "fake" alternate timeline versions of themselves in deference to narratively inferior (and in most cases nonexistent) onscreen versions, and accepting that it all didn't play out like I would have wanted it to temporal mechanically, I just enjoyed a beautifully written examination of one of the most important characters I've been a fan of almost my entire life. Very well done Mr Mack.
And the Benny Russell epilogue. A perfect final touch. I really loved it.
So all in all, mixed feelings. I've digested the ramifications of this book all day, and there is still so much more to say (and still to think about) about how I want this story to fit into my head canon, how the ramifications of this will influence the future of my website, how the ramifications of this will play out with the Star Trek Timeliners and our continued project, and where my overall Star Trek fandom goes from here. Last night was, in a very real way, the end of Star Trek for me.
Yep. Still so much more to say. But I'll leave it there for now. Tomorrow I'll dive into this thread and see what everyone else has to say, but I'm glad I've let it set with me for a day or so, just my own thoughts.
I've said it so many times before, but thank you @Dayton Ward. Thank you @James Swallow. Thank you @David Mack. It wasn't exactly as I had envisioned it or hoped it would be, but this ending means a tremendous amount to me. It always will.
This was my favorite of the trilogy. I've never not loved a David Mack book, and it was no surprise this didn't break that streak. I can see the book's flaws, and I can see the trilogy's flaws which have been talked about in previous discussions. But I am amazingly grateful to have this ending. I can't imagine not having it. All the DS9 plot threads that have ended up staying unresolved will always bother me, and that feeling would have been a hundred times worse without this story.
The preview page certainly set the tone. Insane that we actually saw Earth completely destroyed in a way that *almost* sticks. Not too far into the book we get that info dump scene where my worst fears about this trilogy are locked in. I hate the "We were the alternate universe all along!" decision that was made here. The way that it was decided that the temporal mechanics of this whole situation would function was certainly not the emotionally satisfying way for me. I would have much preferred the Year of Hell version of the reset button to the Deadlock reset version.
And setting the timeline split only fourteen years in the past? I really don't get the thinking there. This was the perfect opportunity to future proof so many continuity issues. Have the split go back to 2063. Any issues between Strange New Worlds and the Lit-verse? Instantly explained. A Romulan War show comes out in the few years? Instantly no problem. A span of over 200 years of history is probably in need of a retcon, so we'll fix 14 years of it and call it good. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. But it is what it is and I'm trying my absolute hardest to take what is good here and focus on it.
Small things I loved... "Shut up Wesley!" Beverly going all action hero on the Borg Queen. Don't mess with her man. Epic deaths and teary goodbyes. So many badass moments towards the end that just kept a grin on my face as our heroes left it all on the field.
Small things I hated... Picard hearing the Borg in his mind after his Caeliar transformation. COrrective Disruptive Action? No. No. Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. No. Hell no. No. No. I refuse. No.
And just like I guaranteed, even in the face of @David Mack calling me out on my declaration, the plot to save the universe played out very much with the same vibe as the end of Lost season 5. Going out guns blazing on a daring and risky half baked plan to erase their pasts so as to create a brighter future that they will never see. It even played so true to form that at the start of Chapter 40 when we begin a wild ride that at first we don't know what to make of, my initial thought was "This sure don't look like LAX!"
But once it was "clear" what Chapter 40 was doing, I sunk in and enjoyed the final moments of the Litverse. And they were beautiful. Accepting there had to be end despite me wanting it to go on, accepting that we would be left with the Kurtzman version of Trek despite me preferring the Lit-verse, accepting that my heroes had been relegated to "fake" alternate timeline versions of themselves in deference to narratively inferior (and in most cases nonexistent) onscreen versions, and accepting that it all didn't play out like I would have wanted it to temporal mechanically, I just enjoyed a beautifully written examination of one of the most important characters I've been a fan of almost my entire life. Very well done Mr Mack.
And the Benny Russell epilogue. A perfect final touch. I really loved it.
So all in all, mixed feelings. I've digested the ramifications of this book all day, and there is still so much more to say (and still to think about) about how I want this story to fit into my head canon, how the ramifications of this will influence the future of my website, how the ramifications of this will play out with the Star Trek Timeliners and our continued project, and where my overall Star Trek fandom goes from here. Last night was, in a very real way, the end of Star Trek for me.
Yep. Still so much more to say. But I'll leave it there for now. Tomorrow I'll dive into this thread and see what everyone else has to say, but I'm glad I've let it set with me for a day or so, just my own thoughts.
I've said it so many times before, but thank you @Dayton Ward. Thank you @James Swallow. Thank you @David Mack. It wasn't exactly as I had envisioned it or hoped it would be, but this ending means a tremendous amount to me. It always will.
Seems self explanatory. What we see on Disco is The Mirror Universe, while what's been featured in the novels is a Mirror Universe connected to the First Splinter.
Similar threads
- Poll
