Chivalry: It's dead, Jim.

[Hermiod]

I fail to see where you get this from what he actually said in that last paragraph. If anything, he's treating them with a higher amount of respect than he treats another guy, not insinuating that anyone else doesn't treat them with respect period.

That's not respect. If anything it's disrespect - assuming this hypothetical woman is incapable of standing up for 20 minutes.

I wasn't try to paint you as a villain, just trying to defuse the thread a bit by having a bit of a laugh with you about the current Ms. Marvel situation. I am looking forward to an epic fight.

I know you were. Just don't suggest that this is a one-sided thing.

Frankly, I think people shouldn't have to explain their nice actions. Honestly, who really cares what "deep seated psychological" reason Flux has for offering a seat to a woman? I would rather people be nice for possibly miss-guided reasons than be mean for proper reasons. To me, it's the same as religion: if a person does nice things, I don't really care if it is because of their religion, I care that they do nice things.

He started the thread and has since indicated that he knew it would cause some debate.

It's not like he is being mean to young men if he doesn't offer him the seat. Doing a nice deed to 50% of the people is better than doing a nice deed to 0% of the people.

It's doing a nice deed for someone based purely on their genitalia that's the issue here. If I did nice deeds but only for people who wore hats and said that it's the way I was brought up so I don't question it, you'd think I was crazy.

 

[Rii]

Right, because when I say "I respect woman so I offer my seat." you somehow hear "I don't think women should vote, work or go to school."

That's a totally reasonable extrapolation.

It's as reasonable as your implication that folks who don't automatically give up their seats to women don't respect them.

Well, it's a little more reasonable than that. I merely exaggerated to demonstrate a point, whereas you're incontrovertibly wrong: I have more respect for women than you do.

I'm done with this shit.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

It's doing a nice deed for someone based purely on their genitalia that's the issue here.

Interesting. So women are nothing more than walking vaginas to you?

 

[Hermiod]

Interesting. So women are nothing more than walking vaginas to you?

Or, maybe I was using an exaggerated means of separating the two groups of people you do and do not give up your seat on the train for.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

My point was that I do what I do based on more than what someone has between their legs. Your reducing it do basic anatomy when there is far more to it than that.

 

[Hermiod]

My point was that I do what I do based on more than what someone has between their legs. Your reducing it do basic anatomy when there is far more to it than that.

You do what you do based on whether the recipient is a woman or a man. That's an arbitrary division that is no more valid than, as I suggested, whether or not the recipient is wearing a hat.

 

[Tiberius Jim]

You think the differences between men and women are relative to the differences between someone wearing a hat and someone not?

Wow.

 

[Hermiod]

You think the differences between men and women are relative to the differences between someone wearing a hat and someone not?

Wow.

When it comes to deciding whether or not I should show kindness to another, it's an intentionally ridiculous basis for making that decision designed to show up how ridiculous yours is.

Then, I'll go on the Internet and tell people I let hat wearing people have a seat and leave the hat-less standing because it's the way I was brought up.

No wonder people who wear hats don't like you.

 

[Daneel]

Damn, I should have entered this thread sooner. Everyone seems to be having so much fun.

I hardly ever take a bus or train anywhere. When I do, I will gladly give up my seat for someone who is elderly, disabled in some way, visibly pregnant, etc. But an able-bodied woman? No, why should I? Because she has a vagina? Quite frankly, if I were a woman, I might find that a bit condescending. I have as much right to that seat as she does, and in such a situation, I would say it's first come, first served.

Does this sound rude? I don't think so. In fact, I consider myself very much a gentleman: I'm always polite and respectful to people, and I take pride in that. I'll hold a door open for anyone, regardless of gender, and if someone asks me for a hand with something, as long as it's not unreasonable, I'll do it. Now, if you want to give up your seat to a lady, hey, that's your prerogative. More power to you. But I personally think it's an outdated tradition.

Man, my grandmother would not be happy to hear me say all this. She still speaks fondly of the times when men would stand up whenever a woman left a restaurant dinner table. I asked her why they did this. She said it was a sign of respect. I asked her why men didn't do this for other men, or why women didn't do it for anyone. She didn't really have an answer, other than, "it was tradition". Like many of the "traditions" my grandmother is fond of, I found this one to be completely ridiculous -- a relic of a time when double standards and patronizing behaviour were exceedingly common. I consider offering a seat to a woman, simply because she is a woman, to be a similar tradition.

Now I'm not trying to criticize any guy who actually does give up his seat for a lady. Many of them probably do it just to be nice, but the fact remains that they're probably not doing it for men as well. If you're going to be courteous, then isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander as well? Why only do it for women? The cynic in me thinks it's indicative of something in the subconscious, either a desire for something (probably sexual) from the female or a belief that the female is inherently weaker and frailer than you -- or both. Am I wrong? Are there other possibilities?

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to attack anyone here --like I said, I strive to be a gentleman -- so I'd prefer it if cooler heads could prevail if anyone responds to this. Thank you.

 

[Daedalus12]

To be honest I don't think chivalry's historical roots has anything to do with the suppression of women's rights. I mean women didn't have much freedom before the arrival of chivalry. For that matter the freedom of a lot of men throughout history were being suppressed as well. Chivalry itself is a male code of ethics which comes from the medieval knights. Being helpful to women is part of that code and so is being a defender of the weak (which was gender neutral btw) but by no means those were the only tenets of that code. I think it's rather far-fetched to think suppression of women's rights derives from the same thinking that led to Chivalry. There might be a common instinctual origin but that hardly counts as thinking.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to attack anyone here --like I said, I strive to be a gentleman -- so I'd prefer it if cooler heads could prevail if anyone responds to this. Thank you.

Heh right. The point of chivalry is how to be a gentleman.

 

[TheBrew]

It's doing a nice deed for someone based purely on their genitalia that's the issue here. If I did nice deeds but only for people who wore hats and said that it's the way I was brought up so I don't question it, you'd think I was crazy.

Yeah, but I think that of most people. In this cynical and self-centered world (not calling anyone in this thread that), I would appreciate people being nice to at least some people and neutral to others.

That is not to say I don't recognize the misogyny in the idea of being chivalrous and people who say that it shouldn't make a difference based on the gender have a good point. And yeah, one of Flux's reasons to post this was to troll (albeit a small one). However, I think that it is really not worth worrying about and the act should just simply be accepted at face value.

I mean, there really isn't much more to argue in the thread. Flux made his point and the obvious other point was made. There isn't a fine line here to debate. The only thing this can lead is people getting worked up over nothing. There are better threads to get riled up and skirt a warning (like in the Trek XI forum).

This whole argument really comes across as silly.

 

[Hermiod]

I mean, there really isn't much more to argue in the thread. Flux made his point and the obvious other point was made. There isn't a fine line here to debate. The only thing this can lead is people getting worked up over nothing. There are better threads to get riled up and skirt a warning (like in the Trek XI forum).

Oh believe me, the issue of people giving up seats to women is a very, very minor one when it comes to the greater issue of people's general behaviour on public transport and the very real effect it has on that transportation system's ability to run smoothly.

 

[pookha]

My point was that I do what I do based on more than what someone has between their legs. Your reducing it do basic anatomy when there is far more to it than that.

i really dont care as long as you do the same for a man older then yourself or
one who have have some difficulty.
and the best way to notice is just watch someone as they get on the bus/train or how well they do as the vehicle goes around the corner.

now what i think is a little silly is that some older then me women will not
take a seat if it is offered by another woman when there are men who will not offer up theirs.
i was on a shuttle bus last week and this woman was shorter then even me.
and the bars to hold on to were pretty damn tall.
it was obvious she was having trouble by the couple of men near who could have offered (both far more young then me) wouldnt.

i guess the big thing for me is..

see to me the issue of who needs to sit is far more important then gender.

but as far as blanket just offering up seat based on gender..
so the question...
what if the choice was offering up the seat to a young woman who seems perfectly healthy and a man either through age or disability has greater need for the seat.
what would one do then???

if this has been asked earlier in the thread sorry since i just sorta skimmed it.


edit..
like i just now saw this..

what does bother me is if a young physically fit man or woman will not let someone who obviously needs to sit (usually one can observe how steady on their feet a person it_) sit in their place.

Ah, but if the person is sitting, how can you observe how steady they are on their feet?

followed by an explanation of why toronto shouldnt stand..
in post here.


yes, this is true but often as i said above i observe people as they are boarding.
it is usually when you can see some difficulty.

but yeah that woman should have just said
i am sorry once you said you were not able to instead of making an issue of it.

 

[RJDiogenes]

This is great. Suppression of women's Rights was done out of respect and chivalry is misogynistic. This is definitely one of the most bizarre cultural phases ever.

 

[Lindley]

I would never imply something so one-sided.

Maybe you haven't realized yet, but I usually don't "take sides" in these sorts of debates. My participation is usually limited to pointing out why the views at both extreme ends are wrong.

I just get annoyed when an otherwise productive thread gets derailed with an argument that doesn't need to exist. Get a bit snippy because of it.

And when you get snippy you take sides?

In this case the "dog with a bone" group is those claiming that courtesy to women is somehow wrong. While both sides have made some extreme statements, the "women are equal so they deserve no special treatment group" is saying the really inexplicable things here.

Not that there isn't a valid idea at the core of their argument, of course. But the way it's being executed really paints them in a bizarre light.

 

[Hermiod]

In this case the "dog with a bone" group is those claiming that courtesy to women is somehow wrong. While both sides have made some extreme statements, the "women are equal so they deserve no special treatment group" is saying the really inexplicable things here.

Not that there isn't a valid idea at the core of their argument, of course. But the way it's being executed really paints them in a bizarre light.

The very concept of equality means you take the rough with the smooth. You don't get special treatment. If you do get special treatment you are not equal. It's not exactly a hard thing to understand.

 

[Lindley]

And you're perfectly welcome to afford them no special treatment. Those of us who do wish to do so are not wrong to do so, however. It may be antiquated, but it's still the classy thing to do.

 

[Hermiod]

And you're perfectly welcome to afford them no special treatment. Those of us who do wish to do so are not wrong to do so, however.

I'm welcome ? The whole premise of this thread is not giving up your seat makes you "a dick" remember ?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

This thread is far too tame, let's take the gloves off.

Based on all of your posts I think it's fair to presume the guy has more experience with women than either of you. Certainly more class. But he never stated he did.

So is your "hot latina wife" actually barefoot or is that merely an expression of speech?

If being polite is outdated then I will happily consider myself "out of date".

Being considerate of those in need is being polite. Being considerate of those who exited the vagina with two X chromosones is condescending and self-serving.

Since when is a kind act, regardless of which gender performs it, automatically dismissed as nonsense?

Since never. Would you like some more straw with that?

Like it or not, men and women are different, quite drastically so - most men like to be treated like men, and most women enjoy being made to feel like a woman, it's just a fact of life. And not all sex differentiating behaviour is negative, don't be so gloomy.

What you mean by this is that women like to be treated condescendingly when it's to their advantage, and don't like it when it isn't. That you find certain elements of patriarchy appealing does not alter their nature.

Rii, no she cleaned the house yesterday.

By the way, what's your opinion on this. For the eight years I have known my wife I have opened her car door for her whenever we're together. Is this outdated or acceptable to you?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I had a feeling that starting this thread would incite controversy but this is honestly to a level I never expected.

For the record, I didn't start the thread to stroke my ego or give myself a pat on the back for being polite. I started it to create a discussion and get different points of view out in the open. If I was shooting for a "masturbatory thread" wouldn't it have read more like:

"So this is what happened just now. I was sitting, and a girl got on the train. She was so cute! So I stood up and offered my seat! Man, I hope I get to do her! Ain't I awesome?!"

Except...this thread didn't start like that. It was brought on by an observation I made today in combination with observations I've made the entire time I've been taking BART to school. Why you guys dont believe me/comprehend me when I say this, I don't understand, but I do not offer my seat or stand when seats are available for personal reasons. If I'm standing when a woman gets on the train, how is she going to know that *I* personally chose not to occupy that seat? I'm simply acknowledging that I am an able bodied 23 year old guy and those seats are going to be better used by someone who needs them, or by a lady. It also eliminates the awkwardness of having to move my things and get out of the seat so that someone else can sit down. So for those thinking I do it to "get a piece" or to make myself feel good, you're wrong. Most of the time I don't even take a seat to begin with.

I don't base it on appearance. I've offered my seat to women in their 40's, 50's and some that were in my age range haven't always been anyone I find myself attracted to. There's no ulterior motive, there's no catch, no reason other than it's how I've been raised and it's the polite and gentlemanly thing to do.

I expected to find some dissenting viewpoints on this topic but I never expected to be made into the bad guy for advocating that people should be polite and have a little old fashioned class. I expected some arguments, but this is just ridiculous.

I have to say, seeing a younger person having such a respectful attitude is a breath of fresh air. Kudos to you and to your parents.