Chivalry: It's dead, Jim.

[Hermiod]

I think we're all making different arguments here. You guys say that women shouldn't get preferential treatment. I agree. It should not be compulsory to let a woman have your seat. However, it is a nice thing to do. It's coming across from your side that you don't like the idea of being nice, although I think you're just trying to make the point that you souldn't be expected to treat girls differently just because they're girls. In which case, yeah, I see your point. So because we all think we mean something else, the debate continues.

In the long run I think we all agree. Maybe.

Flux's argument is that he would and other men should give up their seat to a woman or allow a woman to take the last seat if only one was available out of sheer politeness and just because it is a woman.

I don't know how to see that as anything other than unwarranted preferential treatment.

kimc, An Officer and yourself, whether you advocated it or not, suggested that doing so can make a man appear more attractive in the eyes of the person receiving the seat. An Officer also suggested that men will only do it for attractive women. I am lucky in so much that I no longer have to care whether some strange woman I'll never see again thinks I'm attractive or not based on how willing I am to have an unnecessarily uncomfortable Tube journey.

 

[Lindley]

Flux's argument is that he would and other men should give up their seat to a woman or allow a woman to take the last seat if only one was available out of sheer politeness and just because it is a woman.

I don't know how to see that as anything other than unwarranted preferential treatment.

So.....? Maybe it's preferential, and maybe it's unwarranted, but.....so what?

I can't figure out why you're making a big deal about it. If he wants to be nice, let him be nice.

 

[Holdfast]

In the long run I think we all agree.

Oh no, we can't have that at all!

One thing you can guarantee about this board is that we NEVER all agree. In fact, many of us go out of the way to guarantee disagreement. Your gracious attempt at peacemaking is doomed to failure...

To dance here requires learning a bit of sideways cha-cha-cha, a soupcon of quick-footed hot shoe shuffle and a heavy dose of jazz hands in the other fellow's face...

 

[Hermiod]

Flux's argument is that he would and other men should give up their seat to a woman or allow a woman to take the last seat if only one was available out of sheer politeness and just because it is a woman.

I don't know how to see that as anything other than unwarranted preferential treatment.

So.....? Maybe it's preferential, and maybe it's unwarranted, but.....so what?

I can't figure out why you're making a big deal about it. If he wants to be nice, let him be nice.

The question was asked, I answered it. If you want to know why it's such a big deal I suggest you ask the person who started the thread and belittled everyone who disagreed with him.

 

[SGx]

I think we're all making different arguments here. You guys say that women shouldn't get preferential treatment. I agree. It should not be compulsory to let a woman have your seat. However, it is a nice thing to do. It's coming across from your side that you don't like the idea of being nice, although I think you're just trying to make the point that you souldn't be expected to treat girls differently just because they're girls. In which case, yeah, I see your point. So because we all think we mean something else, the debate continues.

In the long run I think we all agree. Maybe.

kimc, An Officer and yourself, whether you advocated it or not, suggested that doing so can make a man appear more attractive in the eyes of the person receiving the seat.

Well, that much is true, in that if somebody gave me their seat, I would think "Awh, what a nice guy". It's very unlikely that I would proceed to give them my phone number though. But if someone does something nice like that, I think they're nice. If they don't, I don't think any less of them.

 

[kimc]

Look at her feet- if she's wearing high heels, offer her the seat. Sneakers, let it ride. Loafers you can pro-rate.

Seriously though, standing won't kill me (unless I'm carrying a ton of stuff). Offering your seat is a very considerate gesture, and I would not be offended or weirded out by it.

I agree. It's also a very sexy gesture for those guys who wish to be appealing to the opposite sex and again very appreciated by those of us in heels.

However, heels or not I would surrender my seat to an elderly or handicapped person.

If heels are uncomfortable to stand in, might I suggest not wearing them?

Actually since I don't "do bus" and rarely take a train (I drive myself in my own car) this convesation is purely a theoretical one for me. On the rare occassions I do take a train I wear flats and give up my seat to anyone who is elderly, ill, etc.

As for heels many men find them attractive. Many women find a man who gives up his seat attractive. Either way is not a matter of "selfish gain" but rather a natural reaction between the sexes. Wearing heels exagerate signs of fertility which most men find attractive. Giving up a seat tells a woman that you would be a good provider/protector. No matter how much we all want to be "equal" the laws of attraction are what they are.

 

[kimc]

I agree. It's also a very sexy gesture for those guys who wish to be appealing to the opposite sex and again very appreciated by those of us in heels.

However, heels or not I would surrender my seat to an elderly or handicapped person.

If heels are uncomfortable to stand in, might I suggest not wearing them?

I was actually just kidding about the heel heights. Truth be told, I've given up my seat for a woman in high heels (Blue Line in D.C., holla). Who knows? Maybe she had a big job interview or presentation that day. Maybe she forgot her commuting sneakers in the office. Sometimes it's nice to do something nice.

Funny how things work that way. The one time giving up my seat backfired was when I was on a train in Greece and I offered my seat to an elderly man. Not only did he refuse to take it but I think he was offended that I saw him as elderly! Anyway, he did not seem very happy with me...

 

[kimc]

And as kimc and An Officer suggested earlier on, if the only reason for doing it is because it's a "sexy" gesture, then what difference does it make if us less attractive people give up our seats ?

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. Attractiveness is about much more than physical appearance. The language you use and the way you treat others counts as a lot. I know that may not seem fair (after all why can't everyone just be treated equally all the time) but like it or not that's just the way the world works. People make judgements about you in public and treat you accordingly based on not just your dress and personal hygiene but on the non-physical traits I've already mentioned. Neither of us have any control over that.

Actually, they have a point. Giving a girl your seat has nothing to do with assuming that they are weak, but is generally considered to be considerate and respectful. And, for obvious reasons, if you treat girls nice, you're more likely to get one.

You're advocating that they be subservient to you. That's the problem.

I didn't read it that way.

... we simply refuse to do polite things based on if the stranger has boobs or not.

Good God man, I've never come across a more valid reason.

It's thanks to comments like that you should be grateful there's an ocean protecting your virtue from the likes of female, heel-clad seat snatchers like me.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think we're all making different arguments here. You guys say that women shouldn't get preferential treatment. I agree. It should not be compulsory to let a woman have your seat. However, it is a nice thing to do. It's coming across from your side that you don't like the idea of being nice, although I think you're just trying to make the point that you souldn't be expected to treat girls differently just because they're girls. In which case, yeah, I see your point. So because we all think we mean something else, the debate continues.

In the long run I think we all agree. Maybe.

Well of course it's a nice thing to do to just give up your seat to someone. Man, woman, whatever. That sort-of goes without saying.

This argument is centered around giving your seat up to a person just because they happen to be female.

 

[sidious618]

I can't figure out why you're making a big deal about it. If he wants to be nice, let him be nice.

He can be nice. I don't care. But he's calling us bitter and cynical solely because we don't decide how to be nice based on sexist ideas.

 

[Colonel Green]

People have every right to disagree with me. Just as I have ever right to hold the opinion that they're cynical, bitter people with no manners.

Huh, I guess I have no manners. I wonder why I've been giving up my seat for the elderly, pregnant and infirm

Perhaps we just have slightly different ideas of what constitutes good manners. I, for instance, think it is impolite to call people bitter and cynical because of a minor difference of opinion.

It's not your fault though, you just have no manners.

 

[An Officer]

Like it or not, men and women are different, quite drastically so - most men like to be treated like men, and most women enjoy being made to feel like a woman, it's just a fact of life. And not all sex differentiating behaviour is negative, don't be so gloomy. Perhaps it would make for a simpler world if there were no separate sexes (I for one think that would be mighty dull), and we were all identical ... but, we're not, no use pretending otherwise. Some of you guys sound quite naive, frankly.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Women are perfectly capable of opening doors and standing on their own two feet. Nevertheless, I always hold doors for them and offer them my seat; this is part of my lifestyle of being dashing and debonair. And a nice guy. I also help little old ladies across the street and rescue cats that are stuck in trees.

 

[Hunter X]

I generally just play it safe and not sit down, unless the bus or train is has a lot of empty seats. I say "play it safe" because I don't know that I'd pay enough attention to the people coming on the train to see if they're elderly, disabled, pregnant, whatever, but I'd rather they sit than me, seeing as I'm an able bodied 25 year old, so there you go.

I do give preferential treatment to my girlfriend when it comes to seats, opening doors (though I do that for everyone when I can), paying for meals, etc. She appreciates it, it makes her feel like someone special, so why wouldn't I want to do that for her?

 

[Trekker4747]

Like it or not, men and women are different, quite drastically so...

Yep.

It's a biological fact that women can't stand on their feet for any length of time. This is why we never see women who're beat cops, doctors or who work in retail.

Oh.

Wait.

 

[TheBrew]

Women are perfectly capable of opening doors and standing on their own two feet. Nevertheless, I always hold doors for them and offer them my seat; this is part of my lifestyle of being dashing and debonair. And a nice guy. I also help little old ladies across the street and rescue cats that are stuck in trees.

I do the same... I just don't think less of people who don't.

Flux, what you did was very nice. I was raised in a similar manner, though I've never had a problem getting a seat on the BART (just avoid the middle cars). However, I can understand the opposite point of view presented here. Though to claim you did it for the womanly attention is quite laughable since you already have a nice lady.

Even if this was a "stroke my ego" thread, there are plenty of that around here anyways. People should be able to brag about the nice things they do, without motivation. And they shouldn't be done to put other people down, but to make yourself feel better. If I do something nice, I don't think less of the people around me, but better of myself.

 

[Bisz]

I will of course give up my seat for someone elderly or pregnant or a woman with a stroller or something like that, I will not give up my seat to a woman just because she is a woman. I'll hold the door for everyone, and will wait a bit longer to do it for the elderly, again, women get no special treatment just because they are women.

 

[kimc]

Women are perfectly capable of opening doors and standing on their own two feet. Nevertheless, I always hold doors for them and offer them my seat; this is part of my lifestyle of being dashing and debonair. And a nice guy. I also help little old ladies across the street and rescue cats that are stuck in trees.

But you're never around when Batman is. Hmm...

 

[pookha]

I'm posting this from aboard my morning BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) train on my wat to school in San Francisco. Morning trains are always very full, as most people are on their way to work at this time. I get on at the first stop though, so depending on when I get on there are usually seats available. However, I usually elect to stand in one of the open areas and lean against a wall. I'll be sitting in glass all day, and there's sure to be a woman or an elderly person who I'd gladly give my seat up to so it's just easier to stand to begin with. Call me old fashioned, but I always feel like a dick if I'm sitting and a lady or older person is forced to stand.

Not everyone seems to share this feeling. Just 10 minutes ago, a man and a woman got on the train. Both parties appear to be very able bodied, probably in their 40s. There was one seat open on this car. The man looked at the woman, looked at the seat...and sat down like he was playing a game of musical chairs and the penalty of losing was death. The lady is now standing over by one of the doors, around about 5 other guys sitting.

So am I alone here? Is it no longer seen as the right thing to do to give up a seat for a woman? Or is it politically incorrect and am I somehow implying that women are "too weak" to stand up on a train? Is that why these guys don't give their seats; a fear of offending someone? Or are they just lazy and inconsiderate?

really to me it is more important to give up a seat based on the age of the person and their percieved physical condition.

a woman who wont give up her seat for someone less physically able then her should be kicked.

where i work there is shared chivalry..
who ever has a free hand opens the door.
who ever is first to the door opens it and holds it if someone is right behind them.

what does bother me is if a young physically fit man or woman will not let someone who obviously needs to sit (usually one can observe how steady on their feet a person it_) sit in their place.

 

[sidious618]

Like it or not, men and women are different, quite drastically so - most men like to be treated like men, and most women enjoy being made to feel like a woman, it's just a fact of life. And not all sex differentiating behaviour is negative, don't be so gloomy. Perhaps it would make for a simpler world if there were no separate sexes (I for one think that would be mighty dull), and we were all identical ... but, we're not, no use pretending otherwise. Some of you guys sound quite naive, frankly.

No, you're naive. There is no real difference between men and women that is not caused by the social constructs in our society. We see proof of this everyday as women become more active in sports, as men become more active in the fashion industry, as women have no difficulty taking on jobs once reserved for "tough" men and as men begin to take care of themselves in ways that women were only supposed to (spas, manicures etc.).

There is no biological gene that makes men want to be like men and women want to be like women. That's blatantly absurd.