Chapel's crush on Spock

[SPCTRE]

There's a line in there about "falling for an unemotional man". That's what made me think of it.

JENNA: Data, sometimes people blindly make the same mistake again and again.
DATA: Are you currently experiencing this phenomenon?
JENNA: I didn't see it until today. I got out of a relationship with an unemotional man, and I got right back into another, with a man who is absolutely incapable of emotion.
DATA: There does appear to be a recurring motif.
JENNA: You were so kind and attentive. I thought that would be enough.
DATA: It is not?
JENNA: No, it's not. Because as close as we are, I don't really matter to you. Not really. Nothing I can say or do will ever make you happy or sad, or touch you in any way.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/199.htm

 

[2takesfrakes]

Christine Chapel looked exactly like Eileen Roddenberry?

Gene Roddenberry did give Eileen Rexroat two daughters, it's true, but ... Majel Barrett was the wife to whom I was referring. And certainly by the novelisation of TMP, they'd already been married for ten years, strong ...

 

[Warped9]

GR didn't enbellish the story about Number One. He made it up in entirety. He lied to Majel and then repeated the lie to others. He later lied to convention rooms full of fans whenever he repeated the story. NBC's objection to Majel is partly based on her acting, but also because they resented GR's blatant nepotism. GR was also an idiot because he didn't have the decency to hide his extramarital affairs. Indeed he seemed to often flaunt them and many--including NBC brass--found that in very bad taste.

NBC quite liked the first pilot overall. They only had reservations because of casting choices and felt there wasn't enough action. That's it.

Now I will say that sometimes a few different chioces can make a world of difference. "The Cage" isn't any more "cerebral" than WNMHGB, but the 2nd pilot comes across as much more dynamic. The direction, the pacing, the writing and particularly the casting and acting are all distinctly elevated.

Number One doesn't come across strongly only partly because of Majel Barrett. The other reason is she is not a focal point of the story. The character is mostly a bystander. Same with Yeoman Colt. Vina is more important (story wise) but she, too, is largely a bystander. She simply got more screen time.

Elizabeth Dehner comes across as a strong character, stronger than Number One. She's written and performed as forceful and pro-active. She's not just a bystander. Sally Kellerman delivered the goods.


In fairness to Majel it's possible part of what the NBC brass were reacting to was an underwritten and ill-defined character. The character wasn't prominant not just hecause of the actress, but also because of how she was written. She didn't live up to the billing just as the 1st pilot as a whole feels a bit slow and lacking in action.

Now imagine the difference if Number One had been written and performed as strongly as Elizabeth Dehner.


It was never going to happen, but it has long been an interesting thought exercise to wonder what "The Cage" could have been like as a regular series story with the TOS cast. Actually we don't have to wonder much because we have seen close variations. "The Gamesters Of Triskelion" isn't that different from "The Cage" in concept. Kirk is a prisoner just as Pike was but, again, Shatner is more dynamic. Uhura, like Number One is mostly a bit part, but she's definitely more forceful and pro-active. Shaana is about equal to Vina but does seem somewhat more vigorous.


Majel was a victim of an ill-written character and by being the mistress of a shmuck who didn't know better to hide his affairs as well as having already pissed off the network during his previous production (The Lieutenant). Whether she was a good enough actress for the character might well be moot.

 

[johnnybear]

What I want to know is where did Gene Roddenberry ever find the time for all these lovely ladies?
JB

 

[Pauln6]

NBC quite liked the first pilot overall. They only had reservations because of casting choices and felt there wasn't enough action. That's it.

Number One doesn't come across strongly only partly because of Majel Barrett. The other reason is she is not a focal point of the story.

In fairness to Majel it's possible part of what the NBC brass were reacting to was an underwritten and ill-defined character. The character wasn't prominant not just hecause of the actress, but also because of how she was written. She didn't live up to the billing just as the 1st pilot as a whole feels a bit slow and lacking in action.

I'm more interested in why the subsequent female characters were quite poor compared to the first two? Dehner isn't too bad I suppose, do we have any feedback on what the network thought about her character? Was it a change of writers that led to the change or something more subconscious once you take a woman out of trousers and stick her in a short skirt?

Now imagine the difference if Number One had been written and performed as strongly as Elizabeth Dehner.


It was never going to happen, but it has long been an interesting thought exercise to wonder what "The Cage" could have been like as a regular series story with the TOS cast. Actually we don't have to wonder much because we have seen close variations. "The Gamesters Of Triskelion" isn't that different from "The Cage" in concept. Kirk is a prisoner just as Pike was but, again, Shatner is more dynamic. Uhura, like Number One is mostly a bit part, but she's definitely more forceful and pro-active. Shaana is about equal to Vina but does seem somewhat more vigorous.


Majel was a victim of an ill-written character and by being the mistress of a shmuck who didn't know better to hide his affairs as well as having already pissed off the network during his previous production (The Lieutenant). Whether she was a good enough actress for the character might well be moot.

Yes, I accept that part of the network's objection was to who Majel was but you have some interesting observations about Number One generally. She was very understated because she was meant to be emotionless. Maybe that's why I like her! But I also think it might have been why they disliked her in the sixties. They may have been happy with a woman in command but they would have wanted someone more like Wilma Deering, all talk while being winsome and ready to follow the man's lead.

However, I have to stand up for Vina. Listen carefully to her dialogue; she's not some passive victim lacking in agency. She manipulates Pike quite cleverly. She also confirms that she worked out their weaknesses herself and tried all the things that Pike tries to escape but she's a disabled middle-aged woman with no transport off the planet so she had no hope of success. She may not be a combatant but she is tougher than Shanna, who comes across as a child who has just been taught how to fight. Give me Vina any day.

I'm more interested in why the subsequent women were lacking. Do we know what feedback the network gave about Dehner? Was a change of the writing staff to blame or was it subconscious bias once you take a woman out of trousers and stick her in a short skirt?

 

[2takesfrakes]

What I want to know is where did Gene Roddenberry ever find the time for all these lovely ladies?

As Scotty told Kirk in Generations: “Well, like you always say—if something's important, you make the time.”

 

[Drone]

I just don't buy this as anything more than a sound byte. None of the women that came after were anywhere near as professional or efficient as Number One, nor as intelligent and analytical as Vina. Almost all the women that came after lacked agency and were generally swayed by their emotions (possible exceptions include Miranda Jones (although they accuse her of being motivated by jealousy) and Zarabeth (who is really motivated by loneliness), while Uhura (who has to bare her abs) and Helen Noel (who is just too busy flirting to do her job) just about scrape by). I think it's too much of a stretch to suggest that Gene had sufficient influence to deliberately dumb down all the women on the show just to spare Majel's feelings. I do buy that the producers didn't like Majel and that they expressed opinions about the women in the pilot being too up front which led the writers to try and satisfy them by scaling back the influence of the ladies and making them more girly.

Vanna in The Cloud Minders, was forceful, committed to a cause and was one of its leading lights, and was quite perceptive, thanks in part to her not spending an excessive amount of time in the mines.

 

[johnnybear]

And a hell of a beauty too!
JB

 

[Pauln6]

Vanna in The Cloud Minders, was forceful, committed to a cause and was one of its leading lights, and was quite perceptive, thanks in part to her not spending an excessive amount of time in the mines.

Oh yes, I was forgetting her. Plus she wasn't required to fall for Kirk's charm. Despite being highly educated, Droxine was rather vacuous though but then I suppose she was meant to be spoiled so that the two women could be compared.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Christine Chapel's crush did finally pay off in the cartoon's, when Harry Mudd gave her a Happy Pill to use on Spock, which actually worked. It acted as a love potion and turned Mister Spock right the hell on. Every chance he got he was mooning over Nurse Chapel. "Christine ... the woman ... I love! I want to hold her ..." and the whole bit. Nimoy's reading of this script was quite flat, however, which took some of the fun out of it. Nevertheless, if you consider TAS canon, Christine did get to turn Spock into a lovesick fool ... for a time, anyway.

 

[johnnybear]

Yeah they didn't really put much effort into their characterisations on the cartoon show did they!
JB

 

[2takesfrakes]

They certainly didn't.

And I love it when DC Fontana, et al, tries defending the cartoon as 'canon' and 'serious Trek' and the whole bit. Whatever the intent was, going in, that's certainly not what came out of it. TAS fell prey to its cartoonish nature, with ridiculous trappings that simply would not have flown on TOS, even if they'd had the money to show it. The two are not uniform, aside from the animation of it. The flavour of TAS is quite different from the original show.

But Christine Chapel was very cute in TAS, in a way she hadn't been on the other show. I will admit that. It was sweet, though, how the cartoon did try to retain the Spock/Chapel angle, when kids watching it probably wouldn't have wanted any lovey-dovey stuff on their screen squicking them out. It works, though, because it's played for laughs, of course. Not like it was in Plato's Stepchildren, where Christine was humiliated, past the point of humiliation because of it ...

 

[Voodoowoman2]

I think we're talking at cross purposes a little. I don't doubt that the network didn't like him giving a role to his mistress and, while I think that Majel could easily have carried out the role, I don't doubt that others believed she couldn't. You see the same opinions casually banded about over every single actor in the show except maybe Nimoy and Kelley. I also don't doubt that Gene could have 'embellished' the story to his own benefit.

I'm simply making the point that Number One was not the only strong female character in the Cage. If the Network was happy with strong female characters then another character who wasn't in a command position would still have been possible quite easily at any point without risking Gene's alleged lies to protect his mistress's feelings. However, we didn't get one. Therefore I choose to believe that there was a degree of truth in what Gene said, whether you blame the general attitudes of the time or not, however embellished, because the women in the show were very watered down going forward from this point.

They gave a role to Nichelle Nichols his other mistress.

 

[1001001]

They gave a role to Nichelle Nichols his other mistress.

First, welcome to the board.

Second, please take some time to review the posting rules, located here, including the one about bumping old threads:

Resurrecting dead threads. If you find a thread that has not had a post in it in over a year, don't post in it. Start a new thread instead. You can, if necessary, link back to the old thread if something crucial is in the thread.

This one hasn't had a reply in nearly 4 years. Let's let it rest in peace, shall we?

Thanks