Chakotay and Seven on Earth

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by GulBahana, May 2, 2021.

  1. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's not get into a quote off. There are just as many bible quotes calling for violence.
     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Agreed; let's not. I'm just saying that obedience to strictures is not the same thing as hate. If I were to convert to Islam, I might give up bacon, that doesn't mean I actually disliked it.
     
  3. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Most of the violence called for in the Bible (which I am attempting, finally, to get through, though I expect I won't make it) seems to be in the Old Testament. I've read the New Testament and Genesis so far, but Exodus is killing me. Moses needed an editor.

    Anyway, my interpretation is that the New Testament largely supersedes the Old (that's what St. Paul argues anyway). Like I said, my idea of being a good Christian, or even a good human being and a good American citizen is to show compassion, mercy, understanding, and respect irrespective of their differences. I'm with Pope Francis and other faith leaders on that. Again, with regard to gender identity and orientation and the like, even if I don't get it and probably never will, I'm never ever going to persecute anyone because of it, just like I wouldn't ever think about doing that based on someone's race, cultural background, political party, or faith.

    We should embrace the strengths of our differences instead of using them to divide us.
     
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  4. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If I joined the Church of LDS like my father in law wants me too, I'd have to give up beer and that's never going to happen!
     
  5. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Don't blame you. If alcohol (in moderation) was bad, I seriously doubt Jesus's first recorded miracle would have been to turn water into wine.
     
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  6. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Fair statement. The Old Testament is not for the soft of heart. I've just gotten through Genesis and most of Exodus and there is some harsh, violent stuff in there. Pretty much what one would expect in ancient days at the dawn of civilization.

    I liked Genesis. It was a fascinating read, but Exodus with all the stuff about the Tabernacle and the priests vestments is just killing me. I'm going to keep going though and finish it.
     
  7. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly what I tell my wife! She grew up Mormon and still believes in the book of Mormon but she doesn't really practice it. She's been drinking for years, doesn't wear the garments, and no longer has a temple-recommend card, obviously. The kids are being raised Catholic as we agreed for our Catholic wedding which she insisted on. But we get along well since our values are pretty much the same.
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I love that stuff. Completely off topic for this thread but the history in the first five is one of my favorite things.

    Context is key.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. This thread drift was brought by Tribbles. Tribbles: You're in good hands!
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  9. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    He's the last of the Mock-Indians...
     
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  10. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Since polygamy is a thing in some Federation cultures, being married isn't necessarily a barrier.

    Fanfiction. There's an author on fanfiction.net who specializes in C/7 stories and has figured out how to make Chakotay marginally interesting. The main focus of the stories is Seven.

    And there's one story in which Seven and Sam Wildman become a couple. Yes, Sam is already married. But Sam is bi, her worldview includes polygamy, she says her husband would understand, and so she and Seven marry and Naomi acquires a second mother.

    Would you have preferred that they rip each other's clothes off and get "more intimate" in public... in front of nuSulu's captain and colleagues?

    No reason he couldn't have been married more than once, the first time to a woman. For that matter, Demora could have been adopted, or she could have been conceived in vitro, and her mother was a surrogate (I really don't remember if anything was mentioned about Demora's mother in that movie).

    Exactly. TOS Sulu was seen to be attracted to women (ie. Mudd's women and one of the women in "The Way to Eden", for example).

    And of course they think that's so progressive. Hello, this is another thing the fanfiction writers did over 40 years ago. The link in my sig will take you to stories about a bisexual Sulu who had both male and female lovers, until he marries a woman who is part Indiian (from Epsilon Indii) and part Vulcan (genetic experimentation to enable her to adapt to Vulcan during her first marriage, to one of Spock's distant cousins).

    I agree that the source material should be respected. The NuTrek movies don't do that.

    :vulcan:

    Is having blue eyes a lifestyle? How about your height (sans shoes). Is that a lifestyle?

    No?

    Then being LGBT is not a lifestyle, either. Traits you were born with are not a lifestyle. They are traits you were born with.

    Unless you are homeschooling them and never allow them to mingle with other children, they will very likely already have encountered children with these "other gender identities" that you find so confusing. After all, I assume that your state doesn't require people to sew labels on their clothing (yet) to inform others of such personal information.

    No, really? Are they so wrapped in cotton wool that they wouldn't already know about it from school, or is my guess of homeschooling and isolation correct?

    Of course it is, if your faith compels you to support laws and rules and policies that are discriminatory.

    OMFG.

    Honestly, you are not the victim here. You might not actively hate, but you don't demonstrate much beyond grudging tolerance. I'm really disappointed to find this on a Star Trek site. You know, IDIC, and all that sort of stuff.

    Sorry, what history? There's not a lot of content in the first five books of the Old Testament that has been verified by primary historical sources, archaeology, geology, astrophysics, and the list goes on.

    And that's not just me with this view. I was watching a TV show on which some Jewish religious scholars were discussing this issue, and one of them said (paraphrased), "Of course it's a collection of stories intended to be metaphorical, not literal."


    Anyway, on the matter of Chakotay and Seven. As others have said, Seven didn't have a lot of choice on the ship, either in bare numbers of potential mates, or in circumstances. Dating Chakotay was pushing it, as he had authority over her. I wonder if the rest of Starfleet might have seen it as inappropriate, as they were not of equal rank or authority.

    It's interesting, what the fanfic writers could make of this. I've seen Seven paired with Chakotay, Janeway, Sam Wildman, Ayala, the man she knew in the Unimatrix reality (am blanking on his name), the Doctor, B'Elanna, and a variety of OC (original characters).

    What I haven't seen is Seven paired with Tuvok. It's occurred to me to wonder if that might work, assuming T'Pel was out of the picture (either dead or some alternate universe in which she and Tuvok were never married). Seven and Tuvok seem compatible and friendly (as friendly as Tuvok is capable of), and while Tuvok went through Kohlinar, he is still no stranger to emotions. It could work, in the hands of a competent writer.
     
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  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The history of the Hebrew people. But, that's another topic.
     
  12. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Is completely wrong in the OT.
     
  13. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    Mythology, or if you will mythic history. Not any actual history.
     
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  14. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    They got it completely wrong about the Hebrews being collectively enslaved by the Egyptians.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Did I say differently?
     
  16. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I agree with that? That's why I called it mythology or mythic (as in made up, traditional) history?

    You called it:
    which to me plied you called it actual history. Since you know, you called it history right there.
     
  17. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    You implied it.
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Mythology informs a people's history. That's how I have studied Greek and Norse and all other histories and ancient people's. It provides insight in to themes and attitudes of their past. In all cases context is key.

    But that is best saved for another thread topic. Thank you all for the education. :beer:
     
  19. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    I'm afraid you are in error. I support freedom, justice, and the right of any person to love the person they choose. I likewise support the right of any person to follow the strictures of their faith, as long as they respect the legal rights of others. That's not grudging tolerance, it's universal tolerance.

    Traits are not, life decisions are. A person who is gay by inclination might choose not to act on it, due to religious convictions, family expectations, or personal beliefs (such as the notion that it's "unmanly" to be gay). Look at the two main characters in "Brokeback Mountain" as an example: they chose a predominantly "straight" lifestyle.
     
  20. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Please don't move goalposts. That is not what the post said that I replied to.