Chakotay and Seven on Earth

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by GulBahana, May 2, 2021.

  1. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Just curious.

    It took you quite awhile to catch up.

    Groovy. Normally I loathe Keiko O'Brien, but in that episode where she and Kai Winn squared off over Winn's demand that Keiko include religion in her science class, I'm on Keiko's side.

    Strongly implied.
     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    The writers should have dumped the pairing while it was on the drawing board.

    Of course (as I often say), Voyager's writers didn't even get that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. Given that, a well conceived pairing is probably asking too much of them. We should be glad that Tom/B'Elanna turned out as well as it did...
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
  3. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    I think the main problem is that that relation came out of nowhere. There never was any chemistry between these two characters or even affinity. And now we're supposed to buy that Chak is in love with Seven? Please!!!
     
  4. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    [LEFT][SIZE=4][FONT=Open Sans][COLOR=rgb(20, 20, 20)]
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    Uh-huh.

    We're more conservative. It's to be expected.

    Me too. Religion shouldn't be taught in public schools.

    Really? Where.

    I think that's in your head.
     
  5. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Very conservative in areas. If the Supreme Court hadn't ruled in 2003 that what consenting adults do in their bedroom is not the government's business, I expect that some states would never have decriminalized homosexuality at all.

    I expect Bajor has its own rules in that regard. Of course, Winn's actions had little to do with concerns about Keiko's lessons... she had a much more sinister agenda.
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Author Christie Golden had the good taste to end the Chakotay/Seven relationship in the beginning of the Voyager relaunch. An excellent decision!
     
  7. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, that's the one. Agreed.
     
  8. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Nope.

    Wow. 2003. Canada managed it in 1968. It was Pierre Trudeau who did that, while he was still the Minister of Justice, before he became party leader and then Prime Minister.

    Agreed, that she had an agenda. But she's like every sanctimonious, simpering faith-based politician who puts on their best condescending, insulting manner when pushing that agenda.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Good. Put that nonsense to rest and let's never speak of it again. Voyager's General Order 7 ;)
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Braga and Jeri were sleeping together.

    She didn't find out till the table read.

    It was "Oh baby, I got the coolest thing, it's just the coolest, you're going to love it, but I want it to be a surprise."
     
  11. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yep. You're suggesting I'm intolerant. You "guessed" that I homeschooled my kids too.

    Basically, you view me in a negative fashion because I happen to go to church on Sundays and want to instill my values, which include love and tolerance for others, into my children.

    And I can guess what you're reply will be.

    But y'know, that's fine. Like Oddish said, I've become used to it. I won't make a secret or be ashamed of my faith, especially now that I've recently lost my Dad. I'm glad my folks gave me that gift and I'm trying to pass it on. I don't know how much of it will stick with my kids. I've told them that what they choose to believe and their lives are their own and that a lot of people don't believe in God and that's fine, they can still be good people. I've also said a lot of people who say they believe in God are rotten people who obviously are hypocrites, especially a lot of the Catholic bishops. And I've encouraged them to treat others, no matter who they are, with dignity and respect.

    I don't see why anyone would refer to that as "intolerant."

    Again, it goes both ways.
     
  12. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    That's why I reject "woke". It claims to be tolerant, but is inherently intolerant toward those who do not share a certain and ever changing belief system. And, it regularly turns on its own when their beliefs differ from what is fashionable. JK Rowling, a champion for equality and tolerance, was a victim of this.

    I respect a person's right to make their own choices, within the parameters of the rights of others. That is tolerance. However, if you try to force me to approve of those choices, that is intolerance.
     
  13. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Amen, Oddish
     
  14. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Based on what you were saying, it was a reasonable guess. I've encountered people with those attitudes before, and they homeschooled their kids to believe some very bigoted, intolerant things.

    Go to church as many Sundays as you want. That's not the problem.

    My problem with believers is that so many of them are hypocrites. They cherry-pick which parts of the Old and New Testaments to believe in, and excuse the rest, or attack their critics, saying that "God" will punish us for not believing.

    There are far too many believers who commit a plethora of 'sins' six days a week but deem that okay because all they need to do is confess on the seventh day, mumble some prayers, and it's all good. No concern for whatever victims there may have been during the commission of their misdeeds.

    Your Jesus preached acceptance, not tolerance. There's a difference. 'Love thy neighbor' and all that, right? Except so many of you don't do that, or at least don't do it in the spirit your Jesus said to do it.

    Tolerance suggests "I really would prefer not to tolerate this/these people, but the law/my god says I have to, so... fine, I'll tolerate it/them."

    Now this takes me back. Rewind the clock to 1986, at a meeting for the local branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism. I've just been introduced to a new member.

    The first words out of her mouth were not 'Hi', 'Hello', 'Nice to meet you', or (in SCA parlance) 'Well met'.

    The first words out of her mouth were "What church do you go to?"

    That is such a pushy, presumptuous question. I told her, "I don't go to church."

    She promptly had a confused, baffled expression on her face. "Well... that's okay... I guess."

    Since we were guests in another person's home, I did not say what I was thinking, but I will say it here: "Well, thank you for your GRACIOUS permission!" I was angry, but managed to keep it inside until I got home.

    So as it was with that woman, it is now: I don't need your permission. I live in a bible belt region in Western Canada, and I've had a lifetime of people who think they get to give me permission or berate me as it may please them, for me to be atheist. Even my own mother expressed her disgust, and to the day she died, she never understood why that reaction was something that angered me so profoundly that I opted to avoid her and her side of the family from then on. I didn't expect her to like it, but I did expect some attempt to understand, especially as she was not a particularly frequent church-goer herself (weddings and funerals). She couldn't manage acceptance, or even as much as tolerance.

    Condolences on your dad's death. My own dad died a couple of years ago. It's not easy to lose family you love.

    That said... oh, wow. So atheists "can still be good people." Oh, thank you for that ringing endorsement. You've made my decade.

    Not.

    But yeah, please do encourage the Catholic bishops and everyone up to the Pope to stop being hypocrites. Y'know what was recently found in Canada? The remains of 215 dead indigenous kids, buried in a mass grave on the site of a former Catholic-run native residential school. The parents of these kids were never notified about the deaths, and the deaths were due to various reasons like malnutrition, disease, beatings, exposure, that sort of thing. The Pope has been asked several times if he would please come to Canada and issue a personal apology to the indigenous people of Canada for the atrocities the Catholic church perpetrated at this and many other residential schools. The answer has always been NO, and continues to be NO.

    Your Pope is the biggest hypocrite of all, no matter who holds the office. From what I've read of the New Testament, I don't think your Jesus would be very pleased with how his teachings have been corrupted over the past nearly-2000 years. Not sure about Moses... yeah, believers break the commandments right, left, and center, but on the other hand, they do follow a lot of those really intolerant beliefs set forth elsewhere.

    So how is someone else's sexuality or a woman's choice regarding her own reproductive health infringing on your rights? As I said regarding same-sex marriage in Canada, if two men or two women marry, does that suddenly undo the legality of heterosexual marriages? Will their marriage documents and photos spontaneously combust, will the rings vanish in a puff of smoke, will the couple forget they were ever married, will the kids have been born out of wedlock?


    And to keep this at least vaguely on-topic... I read a lot of Voyager fanfic. If anyone is interested, there are plenty of stories on fanfiction.net in which Seven and Chakotay explore religious and spiritual issues, and issues of marriage with or without spiritual/religious themes being involved. After all, Seven has assimilated theoretical knowledge of thousands of species' religious/spiritual beliefs, and in some of these stories she considers whether she could, or should, try some of them out, to figure out what she herself believes, or if she believes at all in anything other than what she was taught by the Borg.
     
  15. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    If a person refuses to give their blessing to a same-sex marriage, or acknowledge that it is legitimate, moral, or holy... does that marriage instantly end? Do spousal benefits terminate? Do all the other things happen that you mentioned? No. Same-sex marriage is as much the law of the land as opposite sex marriage. Accept that, celebrate that, and if some people don't like it, respect their right to their opinion. THAT is tolerance at its finest: letting people make their own choices.
     
  16. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    You have completely missed the point. I'm talking about bigots denying lawful services before the wedding.

    Tolerance and acceptance are not the same thing.
     
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    No, they're not. Tolerance is the law of the land. Acceptance is freely given, a product of the belief that love is love. One is a right, the other is a gift.
     
  18. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    A gift? Wow.

    Y'know what? I don't consider my acceptance that my housekeeping helper is lesbian, married to a woman, as a "gift." It's simply one more facet of her life that is her life and not my business unless she chooses to discuss it. And even then it's not my right to judge. If I had any inclination to judge, which I don't. The only judgmental things I've thought about them is that it's a bad idea to ask either of them to help me organize my books, since they have no clue how to do that, and we've had arguments over veganism (don't judge the contents of my fridge, and I won't judge yours) and the covid vaccine (I'm a pro-vaccine omnivore).
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  19. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    It most certainly is a gift, because you accept her for who she is, freely and by choice. Not because the law demands it, but because you want to.
     
  20. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly what did I say that would make you think I homeschooled my kids? Every generation of my family has gone to public schools. I don't think your assumption was reasonable at all.

    Gee, thanks.

    That's my problem with a lot of them too. I get it. Being a Catholic, I get it online from a lot of Evangelicals.

    I also get it from New Atheists too.

    Yeah, there are, but I'm not one of them and I'd say most religious folks aren't like that either.

    Besides, you have to repent and folks like that don't actually feel shame.

    My impression is that Jesus preached love and mercy. He never said that sin was acceptable.

    Definition of tolerance:

    NOUN
    1. the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

    Nothing here about preferring not to tolerate. That's your definition, not mine.

    You know, I am nothing like that woman or all the "hypocrites" you are referring to. I don't ask what church people go too, I could honestly care less. What you've done is project your own negative stereotype onto me. You judged me without knowing anything about me besides me being Catholic.

    "Condolences on your dad's death. My own dad died a couple of years ago. It's not easy to lose family you love."

    Thanks. But, y'know\ I don't understand why you would even care based on your hostility towards me and, apparently, other Christians.

    He died of a malignant salivary gland cancer. It rotted away 1/4 of his face. He had many infections and multiple surgeries. He lived on a feeding tube for 3 years, lost his right ear and had his right eye sewed up.

    He was never religious, but he converted to Catholicism when he got sick.

    I shared Mass with him in his condo as much as I could.

    We buried him the day before Christmas Eve.

    I also said that many Christians were bad people, but if it makes you happy, yes, most atheists are wonderful great, kind people. Happy now?

    Yeah, I did read all about this. I agree with PM Trudeau. It's an atrocity and the Pope should address it.

    I never said it did.

    Again, I never said it did. .

    Obviously not.

    Sorry about your dad too. I'd like to pray for him, but I understand if you don't want me to.

    I'm sorry you had such negative experiences with religious folks. I don't like those kind of folks either. I'm not one of them.
     
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