Chakotay and 7 of 9, why?

[exodus]

Seven didn't have any respect for Harry. She treated him like a particularly dim child most of the time. More than that, Harry had no respect for himself, while Seven had very high regard for herself. Someone as confident as Seven paired with someone as unsure as Harry is a recipe for an imbalanced relationship.

Yes, but we're speculating here, right? In an ideal world, on an ideal VOY, Harry would have grown up. At the end of seven years, he wouldn't have been the same kid that he was at the beginning. And if that had happened, he might have grown into a relationship.

Of course, TPTB didn't allow him to grow up, which is a shame for more reasons than this one, but if they had...well, no telling what we would have ended up with.

Besides, I agree with Teya that Seven wasn't really that confident. She was intellectually confident, yes, but emotionally, she was very unsure of herself, very vulnerable. That robotic mask of hers really was a mask, as Teya put it. Honestly, sometimes I just wanted to give her a hug - which she wouldn't have known how to react to. That's how emotionally unsure she was.

I agree, she was emotionally unsure. But the fact that she continually pretended not to be would be intimidating to someone like Harry, wouldn't it? Ater all, he's no mind reader.

Harry was best friends with Tom.
Tom wasn't emotionally mature himself & Harry just let it roll off his back. I don't think he would treat Seven much differently. Harry did have a pretty thick skin for this type of thing.

 

[JustKate]

Ok but our debate originated from the sexual promiscuity of a Starfleet crew. How does this relate?

Goodness. It's been so complicated.

We actually started disagreeing on the subject of Kirk, if I am remembering correctly. Please don't make me go back and get all the references because I'll be here all day, but we were talking about "romance," and I said, rather offhandedly, that I didn't consider Kirk a particularly romantic figure, mostly because I don't find guys who have random casual sex attractive or romantic. At some point, you then introduced the idea that in the Trek universe, they wouldn't necessarily have the same morals that I have. Which is a definite possibility, of course. And then somebody - RR, I think - mentioned that Kirk's sexual shennanigans have been exaggerated over the years.

But there is at least one example of a sexual shennanigan in which, IMO, Kirk comes out looking less than pristine in an unambiguous way, and that is Drusilla in "Bread and Circuses." One's perception of his other flings depends on how one feels about casual sex. But in the case of Drusilla, one's perception depends on how you feel about slavery (but I'm assuming we're all against slavery) or on whether one realizes the situation she's been put in.

And that situation was untenable. Kirk was wrong. It wasn't a fun little amoral fling. Drusilla literally says that she's been sent there by her master to please him, and that's what she does. If I am remembering correctly, we actually see Kirk wake up afterwards, when she's already left. It really is a weird and icky scene, when you look at it with an adult's eyes.

Ok.
Which brings me back to the question: Is it amoral for just you or is it also amoral in the Trek universe?

Because if Orion Sex Slaves are permitted, then is what happened in "B&C" also amoral in the Trek universe too or like the OSS, is it accepted?

See what I'm saying now?

I really and truly do not believe that sex slaves or slaves of any kind are acceptable in the Trek universe - at least the Federation portion of that universe. Even on TOS, mired as it was in 1960s sensibilities, they talk all the time about dignity and freedom and liberty and justice for all, and unlike, say, Thomas Jefferson, who put definite mental limits on who he meant by "all," they seem to mean it. We don't see second-class citizens in the Federation. Yes, we see women in itty-bitty miniskirts, which I personally think is silly, but eh, so what? Maybe that's merely a sign of that sexual liberation you mentioned. It's clear to me, at least, that it's not a sign that using women against their will is acceptable.

And in "Bread & Circuses," along with other episodes, the Federation's opposition to slavery is specifically mentioned.

So how do the Orion slave girls fit into this? I have no idea. We aren't told, so we are free to ret-con to our hearts content. The ret-con provided by ENT was that they weren't really slaves, in the usual sense of the word, which sounds like a cop-out to me, but I haven't seen the episode so I can't say for sure. If they aren't a cop-out, they are an anomaly, because we never see anything like them anywhere else.

So I'd say that B&S is...not amoral, but immoral - not just for me but for the Trek universe, too.

Can't we all just . . . get along?

There, there, RR. It'll be OK. You'll see.

 

[exodus]

Goodness. It's been so complicated.

We actually started disagreeing on the subject of Kirk, if I am remembering correctly. Please don't make me go back and get all the references because I'll be here all day, but we were talking about "romance," and I said, rather offhandedly, that I didn't consider Kirk a particularly romantic figure, mostly because I don't find guys who have random casual sex attractive or romantic. At some point, you then introduced the idea that in the Trek universe, they wouldn't necessarily have the same morals that I have. Which is a definite possibility, of course. And then somebody - RR, I think - mentioned that Kirk's sexual shennanigans have been exaggerated over the years.

But there is at least one example of a sexual shennanigan in which, IMO, Kirk comes out looking less than pristine in an unambiguous way, and that is Drusilla in "Bread and Circuses." One's perception of his other flings depends on how one feels about casual sex. But in the case of Drusilla, one's perception depends on how you feel about slavery (but I'm assuming we're all against slavery) or on whether one realizes the situation she's been put in.

And that situation was untenable. Kirk was wrong. It wasn't a fun little amoral fling. Drusilla literally says that she's been sent there by her master to please him, and that's what she does. If I am remembering correctly, we actually see Kirk wake up afterwards, when she's already left. It really is a weird and icky scene, when you look at it with an adult's eyes.

Ok.
Which brings me back to the question: Is it amoral for just you or is it also amoral in the Trek universe?

Because if Orion Sex Slaves are permitted, then is what happened in "B&C" also amoral in the Trek universe too or like the OSS, is it accepted?

See what I'm saying now?

I really and truly do not believe that sex slaves or slaves of any kind are acceptable in the Trek universe - at least the Federation portion of that universe. Even on TOS, mired as it was in 1960s sensibilities, they talk all the time about dignity and freedom and liberty and justice for all, and unlike, say, Thomas Jefferson, who put definite mental limits on who he meant by "all," they seem to mean it. We don't see second-class citizens in the Federation. Yes, we see women in itty-bitty miniskirts, which I personally think is silly, but eh, so what? Maybe that's merely a sign of that sexual liberation you mentioned. It's clear to me, at least, that it's not a sign that using women against their will is acceptable.

But it is tolerated due to the Federations non-interferance policy of worlds outside their jurisdiction. Aren't Quark's Dabo Girls also hookers? Is the EMH a slave? By "Flesh & Blood" he acheived sentience but Starfleet still calls him property in "Author, Author".

BTW, weren't the colonist of the Demilertized Zone(Maquis) treated like second class citizens due to a peace treaty? Isn't that why Starfleet Officers quit to join them?

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

This whole relationship seemed so artificial.

The writers realized nobody on Voyager was attractive enough to be with 7of9 so they threw in some warm prop.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What bothered me is that they weren't even particularly friends prior to the romance.

But Trek sucks at romance. Sadly. I didn't think he was a bad choice as far as he would be good for her, but I doubt it would last.

 

[DevilEyes]

This whole relationship seemed so artificial.

The writers realized nobody on Voyager was attractive enough to be with 7of9 so they threw in some warm prop.

If the writers of VOY had been deciding who to pair up with whom on the basis of "Is X attractive enough for Y", they would have never put Neelix and Kes together.

And Seven herself would probably say that physical attractiveness is irrelevant. She'd value a man's efficiency far more.

 

[Klaitu]

Greetings!

What I thought was kind of silly and forced in the end was the realtionship of Chakotay and 7 of 9, which seemed to happen at the last episode of the series. I wonder why the writers did this?

Wouldn't have made more since for Janeway and Chakotay to hook up in the end?

The 7 of 9 character to me was not that sexy. I know that especially here, I am a minority, but I never thought she (the character) was all that. Jeri Ryan the actress is attractive, but I just don't like her personality. I have always had a hardon for Janeway. M-I-L-F in spades.

Did anyone else thought that the Chakotay/ 7 of 9 relationship was silly or contrived?

It wasn't entirely out of the blue.. I seem to recall her practicing with a pretend Chakotay on the holodeck before the finale episode.

Actually, it really reminds me of Worf and Troi being some kind of big deal in the TNG finale. That relationship didn't go much of anywhere either.