Cause and Effect - the Bozeman

[Prax]

Thus the "I" in DTI.

Are you being smart? My point was that they aren't the "time cops."

 

[Timo]

The novels have it that only Scotty and Spock know how to slingshot, based on what happened to the engines in Naked Time, which explains why everyone and his dog doesn't slingshot.

Might also be that the slingshot thing only works with Sol (after all, that's the location where all the three, or six, known attempts were made). Those meddling Klingons and their targ might have tried it elsewhere, confident they got every variable right, and the repeated gory results would explain why they aren't attempting any longer.

Starfleet in turn might be in a relatively good position to stop unauthorized use of Sol for the purpose...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Not going to pretend to be expert American here (Canadian)... but gawddamn the news of late has reminded me of this episode.... some ppl are stuck in the 1940s or before...

so far this thread is really gving me the giggles... I think though that the Enterprise communication system (til the end) perhaps wasn't designed for UHF. but my thinking was this was an unavoidable loop.. did they not try to hail towards the bridge breaking up? Anyway I think this was one of the better attempts at showing time travel/loops as they did try to make attempts each time forward at putting more of the puzzle together...

Then said 'The coke made me do it'

 

[tharpdevenport]

The Bozeman and the Reliant were different class vessels; using the Reliant model to compare the Bozeman on screen doesn't work.

Just like Klingon Bird's of Prey had many different models, varying in design and size.

How about not the loop, but what about everybody else? Picard has the tiem checked to see how long they were in the loo; indeed, time everywhere else went on, so ... nobody saw or detected a large vessel exploding? Nobody came looking for the Enterprise?

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Hmm its an interesting q.. That by the episode itself isnt answered cause they keep going back in time . i think the episode Clues is a more put together show.

Def 1 q that comes to mind... Why IS the Bozeman stuck in a different century.. The enterprise was only good enough for 3 or 4 go abouts.. Was that also the c case with Bozeman or what WAS it doing for all those centuries

The Bozeman and the Reliant were different class vessels; using the Reliant model to compare the Bozeman on screen doesn't work.

Just like Klingon Bird's of Prey had many different models, varying in design and size.

How about not the loop, but what about everybody else? Picard has the tiem checked to see how long they were in the loo; indeed, time everywhere else went on, so ... nobody saw or detected a large vessel exploding? Nobody came looking for the Enterprise?

 

[Prax]

The Bozeman traveled through some kind of temporal rift. It collided with the Enterprise cause the Enterprise to get caught in a loop.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

We know that.. Some of the recent questions that have been pose

HowHow about not the loop, but what about everybody else? Picard has the tiem checked to see how long they were in the loo; indeed, time everywhere else went on, so ... nobody saw or detected a large vessel

& about if the vessel had been trapped for just the encounter with the Enterprise or longer (its from very long ago time period.. Was it actuallystuck there for that kind of time with Enterprise or from even longer?)

The Bozeman traveled through some kind of temporal rift. It collided with the Enterprise cause the Enterprise to get caught in a loop.

 

[Prax]

I was going to say the Bozeman was not stuck in a loop at all, as that's what others were saying earlier in the thread, but now that I think about it, it was. So the Bozeman traveled through a time rift and was stuck in the loop with the Enterprise for 21 days.

Or

The Bozeman didn't experience the loop, only Enterprise did.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Hmm that last part.. Well we only see from Enterprise POV. Picards stance at end is certainly of the view that Frasier is the one who is unaware of the date.. I guess it is kind of a blank as very little is added.. Could be either.. It just seems from Picard that Bozeman is stuck in an ever long loop playing out over some significant time.. Significant enought that uniforms of different era.. Reliant. Class but true nothing really is there to say.. Unless has been explored post episode.? Guess its more camera magic than anything else.. Deja Vu.. Hmm

I was going to say the Bozeman was not stuck in a loop at all, as that's what others were saying earlier in the thread, but now that I think about it, it was. So the Bozeman traveled through a time rift and was stuck in the loop with the Enterprise for 21 days.

Or

The Bozeman didn't experience the loop, only Enterprise did.

 

[Timo]

By the rules of the episode, the two ships should be stuck in the same number of loops. There is no requirement for the length of the individual loop to be the same for the two ships, though, and indeed we see the Bozeman is in there for mere seconds. She just jumps into the looping game at a later stage of each individual loop - she doesn't need to relive the 23rd century bits before the fateful trip through the Typhon Time Rift.

How an individual loop works is left more open, but not wide open. After the E-D blows up, is there a cloud of debris left behind while another E-D pops up at a distance and starts another day's journey towards her fate? After half a dozen loops, are there half a dozen debris fields piling up at the spot where the E-D always ends up? Well, no, or our heroes could tell - so apparently, time doesn't "move on" for such debris.

So no, Starfleet can't "see the explosions and rush to help". Because in every loop where the E-D does blow up, everything goes back in time, and any Starfleet help is in the subjective future of our heroes. And in the one loop where time keeps "moving on" past the meeting with the Bozeman, there is no explosion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tharpdevenport]

Perhaps the loop had a time where it looped again. Say, for example, The Bozeman entered the loop at noon, then at 4:00 it starts the loop back at noon, only this time the Enterprise entered the lop before 4:00. Random clock times just for the example.

The Bozeman would have then, theoretically, entered out of the rift and into the loop and just been stuck there repeating it by itself until this time it hit the Enterprise.

But even then, with that theory, nobody encountered the Bozeman until just now? Surely some other Federation ship would have picked it up, or some array scanning space, or some alien vessel.

Hypothetically, a vessel could have come upon it but then 4:00 rolled around and the Bozeman disappeared. Rather than look crazy, the captain or the alien crew just told everybody to shut up about it.

 

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't it be more logical that the Bozeman time traveled to the 24th century, but ran into USS Enterprise and that started the loop. For the pervious several months there would not yet have been a USS Bozeman in the 24th century, she instead vanished through a rift of some kind in the 2270s and only appeared again just in time to run into Enterprise.

Meaning you shouldn't be able to have this loop at all without both ships involved every time.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Unless through official channels (Berman Etc) not sure if we know the script and th. If at Bozeman was only involved for the 20 odd days the EnterPrise was off from starfleet clock time and this rift formedt and pulled BozemN into the enterprises quantum reality OR it was stuck for centuries repeating in the loop and were unaware til Ent D was also caught in and collided and able to say HEY.do you guys know your caught in rift.
. Its just not clear

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

From Mem Alpha.

In 2278, this starship was commanded byCaptain Morgan Bateson. In that year, three weeks out of starbase, the Bozemanencountered a temporal distortion where it remained trapped until the year 2368. There, in an area of space known as the Typhon Expanse, the Bozemanencountered the USSEnterprise-D, with which it collided, causing the Enterprise to explode. The explosion, being in such close proximity to the temporal distortion, ruptured the spacetime continuum, trapping both vessels in a temporal causality loop

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

I can just see the promo singalong commercial for the Bozeman...(the best part of waking uppp. Folgers in cup..) Ever feel like your stuck in a never ending loop? Same old job same old song? Take a ride on the Bozeman.. We been repeating it 90 years and countin! And end song would be.. Gonna Part like its 1999!!!! Disco ball lights as the scene cuts off

 

[Tenacity]

the Bozeman encountered a temporal distortion where it remained trapped until the year 2368.

Seems (to me) that instead the distortion would immediately transferred the Boseman to the 24th century.

Personal theory, everytime the Enterprise reset a few days, the Boseman reset as well, back to the 23rd century.

Groundhog day.

 

[Mytran]

Unless the temporal distortion had the effect of freezing the passage of time for anything that got trapped within it?
The disrupting effect of the temporal distoration might also explain the ease at which the local timestream around the distortion was "reset" by a mere warp core breach - something so minor wouldn't normally have that effect on real spacetime.
This also gels nicely with Captain Batesman's dialogue, which seems to indicate no break at all in their perception from entering the temporal distortion to their exiting of it:

BATESON: Our sensors detected a temporal distortion. Then your ship appeared. We nearly hit you.

There's no suggestion that anything more than a few seconds passed for the crew of the USS Bozeman, certainly nothing along the lines of a protracted series of time loops.

I think that they were trapped in a timeless state for 78 years until drawn out by the proximity of the Enterprise-D, where they rejoined normal spacetime. They just had to repeat those exiting final seconds for 40 or so loops, but eventually the Bozeman was free and able to continue on her way

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Bozeman

Seems pretty clear - for 90 years the Bozeman was stuck, and for 20 some days the Enterprise was caught in it, The explosive reaction from that shuttle bay.. damn... it clearly was able to bridge the gap and Frasier went on his way.. cue Fraiser song

Only unanswered q from that is how it would affect the whole "polluting timeline" thing but we saw similar in The Neutral Zone episode from S1.

Seems (to me) that instead the distortion would immediately transferred the Boseman to the 24th century.

Personal theory, everytime the Enterprise reset a few days, the Boseman reset as well, back to the 23rd century.

Groundhog day.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Handsomeyoungensign, there is absolutely no way the Bozeman could have been trapped in the loop for 90 years. Remember what I said earlier - "Cause and Effect" showed that the Enterprise crew were already showing visible signs of deja vu after only being trapped for a few DAYS. If the Bozeman had been in a loop for 9 decades, its crew would all have gone insane. There's no way they would have been as normal-looking as we saw in the episode.

Oh, and while we're on the subject: Remember this scene in Star Trek: First Contact?

Admiral Hayes: Defiant and Bozeman, fall back to mobile position one.

Unidentified Voice: Acknowledged.

Who is that voice? Is it Bateson or Worf? Hayes was speaking to the captains of both ships, so it could have been either one of them who responded to the hail.

I always assumed it was Worf, because I didn't believe that an actor of Kelsey Grammer's stature would agree to return just to voice ONE WORD of dialogue. Can anyone confirm who this is?

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Your argument is with Mem Alpha then, direct queries to them/ Rick Berman etc...

I dont write this stuff they do
Gene sadly passed however.. I wouldnt dare argue with those who are not living.

@Handsomeyoungensign, there is absolutely no way the Bozeman could have been trapped in the loop for 90 years. Remember what I said earlier - "Cause and Effect" showed that the Enterprise crew were already showing visible signs of deja vu after only being trapped for a few DAYS. If the Bozeman had been in a loop for 9 decades, its crew would all have gone insane. There's no way they would have been as normal-looking as we saw in the episode.