Yes, I've seen Memory Alpha's entry on the Bozeman just like you have.
And my position stands.
Cause and Effect - the Bozeman
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Yes, I've seen Memory Alpha's entry on the Bozeman just like you have.
And my position stands.
I think we should ignore that entry. I've noticed information from books, not episodes or films, have been edited into entries. When you've got books and different authors whose research of thinking on something may not be that deep, you get conflicting information or just bad information.
Think some of you may be getting mixed up with this and the movie Generations of which there is a Nexus similar to what you are describing. In this episode Cause and Effect Geordi makes a speech in at least one or more of the loops in Observation lounge something like "we get in we collide and we go back right to the beginning each time" IRiker I remember says something like "someones idea of hell" and Geordi makes a remark that we couldve been here for days months even Years... NOT SURE where the disagreement is here. IF there was more evidence to suggest everyone is making a 9/11 type coverup of a show that was done 25 years ago I think someof us need to reality check. FACTS../ AND RELEVANCE like it or lump it they lost 90 years. If you want to write your own script no ones stopping you. that isnt what popular belief is
Star Trek is a work of fiction. We can interpret what we see any way we want, because it's all make-believe.
As for my interpretation, based on what I saw on screen: The Bozeman clearly emerges from some sort of spacial anomaly. It's not like the ship was just already there hanging in space, flying a few kilometers and then rewinding back, for 90 years. And if it truly was caught in a time loop in that particular area for 90 years, then the appearance of the Enterprise shouldn't have mattered: even when the crash was avoided, the Bozeman still should have looped back to the beginning, since it's not like the Enterprise was there for the first 89 years anyway, as others have stated. So IMHO the anomaly that the Bozeman traveled through, combined with the Enterprise's arrival, was just an isolated event combining time travel with a temporary time loop.
^ Good points.
Yeah, there's an inconsistency with "temporal anomaly management" in this episode. They looped one too many times, eating up the precious minutes we'd need for a satisfying wrap-up of the story. What are we to think, that the Bozeman is going to have to get used to living in the 24th century? When we know that even back in Kirk's day, it's possible to go back in time and correct things? DTI concept is problematic in of itself. Because... by the very nature of its mission, EVERYTHING should be correct and not detectable as anomalies or flaws, by having done their job!But we do see their struggles to keep things "as they should". Remember in Voyager when the command crew makes the realization that Starling may have ushered in the computer revolution that led to Starfleet's technology? Well, he did it with futuristic technology, which is a conundrum.... because if he's instrumental in creating the start for that technology, how did it get to him in the first place (via the time ship)? However it's worked out, he becomes essential. Without Starling, you don't have Starfleet as we know it (or perhaps delayed by a 100 years or more, which means the Borg take over everything, without Starfleet being there to stop them -- yikes).
There is one sad consideration for Bateson and the Bozeman... their having gone missing into the future (being absent for 80 years) doesn't seem to have had a negative effect on the timeline. But what would happen if they did go back? Would they find themselves destroyed some other way, perhaps down the road after being refitted, becoming one more statistic at Wolf 359? Or some other fate? Who knows. In any case, their continued presence in the 24th century could introduce changes that reverberate forward. Probably best for the DTI to show up an usher them back to their proper time. But then we'd have a lot of eye rolling by the audience. "The DTI? Not again!"
Maybe there was an original timeline, delayed by however many number of years, and that during that time, the Borg never even noticed Earth, because things were developing more slowly anyways. Maybe the Borg head in a totally different direction and never even bother the Federation. Q introduced them, right?
Trying to keep things "As they Should" but coming from the inside of a timeline (one possible future) seems to make them equally as guilty of altering timelines as anyone they are trying to stop lmao.
My take on it is that the loop and the time travel are actually to a degree separate entities. The time travel is as a result of the anomaly, which also caused the loop after the Bozeman travelled through time and collided with and accidently destroyed the Enterprise.
Watching the episode.
The Enterprise spent a day in the event, and the Bozeman spent thirty seconds. The Bozeman crew didn't have time to notice that they were looping.
Cause and effect is reversed, because of ironic license.
A loop, without the Enterprise, possibly started 90ish years ago because of the explosion in 2368, even though the two ships didn't collide the first 73,584,000 times because the Enterprise had not entered the Typhon Expanse, and wasn't there yet.
The Enterprise spent a day in the event, and the Bozeman spent thirty seconds. The Bozeman crew didn't have time to notice that they were looping.
Cause and effect is reversed, because of ironic license.
A loop, without the Enterprise, possibly started 90ish years ago because of the explosion in 2368, even though the two ships didn't collide the first 73,584,000 times because the Enterprise had not entered the Typhon Expanse, and wasn't there yet.
We can say the heroes are wrong. Or we can say they get it right and the collision is exactly what causes the loop. Just like Shamrock Holmes says, those would be two completely separate events:
0) Anomaly at Typhon connects the 2270s to the 2360s in a one-way "sleigh ride" (Thank you, Mr. LaForge). It's always there regardless of who does what.
1) Anomaly whisks the B to the future, into a place and time T we miss witnessing by about three seconds in the teaser. The E has apparently come to study the anomaly and gets hit by the B.
2) The explosion sends the E to the past in some sort of a localized effect that doesn't stop time from moving forward quite normally for the rest of the universe, and for the Federation Timebase Beacons therein. The E heroes don't notice because they never watch the FTB clock unless they absolutely have to - it's way too annoying to notice the ship running fast or slow by a few hours due to the usual anomalies and accelerations and other adventures.
3) The E relives the moments that take her back to T. The B is not reliving anything, as the effect doesn't extend very far in either space or time. There is no B anywhere during this reliving - the B has left the 23rd century, well, a century ago, and will only enter the 24th century later on, at actual T, in that split-second "sleigh ride" that isn't part of the time loop.
4) The one known characteristic of T is that this is where and when the B will be coming out of the anomaly (which, did I mention, isn't part of the time loop). It's always "the first time", too, as there's no debris from past collisions there. The B relives only those last few seconds of the loop, then local space near T is swept clear of everything, including debris and the (possibly surviving) B, because time loop.
Timo Saloniemi
0) Anomaly at Typhon connects the 2270s to the 2360s in a one-way "sleigh ride" (Thank you, Mr. LaForge). It's always there regardless of who does what.
1) Anomaly whisks the B to the future, into a place and time T we miss witnessing by about three seconds in the teaser. The E has apparently come to study the anomaly and gets hit by the B.
2) The explosion sends the E to the past in some sort of a localized effect that doesn't stop time from moving forward quite normally for the rest of the universe, and for the Federation Timebase Beacons therein. The E heroes don't notice because they never watch the FTB clock unless they absolutely have to - it's way too annoying to notice the ship running fast or slow by a few hours due to the usual anomalies and accelerations and other adventures.
3) The E relives the moments that take her back to T. The B is not reliving anything, as the effect doesn't extend very far in either space or time. There is no B anywhere during this reliving - the B has left the 23rd century, well, a century ago, and will only enter the 24th century later on, at actual T, in that split-second "sleigh ride" that isn't part of the time loop.
4) The one known characteristic of T is that this is where and when the B will be coming out of the anomaly (which, did I mention, isn't part of the time loop). It's always "the first time", too, as there's no debris from past collisions there. The B relives only those last few seconds of the loop, then local space near T is swept clear of everything, including debris and the (possibly surviving) B, because time loop.
Timo Saloniemi
Bateson said that it was the Enterprise which came out of the Anomaly, and not that his ship went into an anomaly. It's possible then that the entrance to the anomalies are invisible, and it only has a visual appearance at it's exit.
There is one potential flaw in all of this...
Once you go back in time, that's part of history.
So... wouldn't each time the Enterprise ends up at the beginning of the loop, they'd see their own Enterprise from the previously loop? As an analogy, like Marty McFly seeing himself as he goes back into the past for a second time.
Like Janeway says, these temporal paradoxes give me a headache! I hate recursion. Hated it in programming, hate it in sci-fi!
Once you go back in time, that's part of history.
So... wouldn't each time the Enterprise ends up at the beginning of the loop, they'd see their own Enterprise from the previously loop? As an analogy, like Marty McFly seeing himself as he goes back into the past for a second time.
Like Janeway says, these temporal paradoxes give me a headache! I hate recursion. Hated it in programming, hate it in sci-fi!
Indeed, in that swirly mist, even the Bajoran Wormhole might fail to make much of an appearance...
I wonder how much symmetry there is. Objectively and absolutely, the Bozeman moved in time while the Enterprise did not - that is, the former popped into a universe alien to her native one, the latter stayed put. But might the anomaly allow travel in the other direction, too? Or to different extent - farther to the future, or less far? Is it always there for anybody, anywhen?
They sort of do - that's where those strange voices come from, supposedly. The "new" Enterprise just happens to be perfectly overlaid on the "old" one, atom by atom, at first. And never makes any random maneuvers (*), so the ships stay overlaid - but the people within do engage in random activities so the voices don't exactly overlap but instead become a chaotic jumble.
Timo Saloniemi
* They have this big argument about whether to change course, but we never learn they would - they don't even appear to stop in order to think it through, but keep on going through the discussion. So every iteration of their route is the same, that is, the same as Iteration Zero. Which may make some sense here, as opposed to "Time Squared" where it made no sense not to deviate from the route previously taken.
17.4 days.
Either the Enterprise time travelled forward 17.4 days, or every-loop happened inside a bubble for zero time + 1 loop, but out side the bubble for 17.4 days.
Either the Enterprise time travelled forward 17.4 days, or every-loop happened inside a bubble for zero time + 1 loop, but out side the bubble for 17.4 days.
In most cases of time travel as depicted in Star Trek, you are correct
However, in this instance we are dealing with an isolated "bubble" in the fabric of space/time that was literally "rewound" each time the loop was reset. There were afterimages to be sure (which is what the crew kept picking up on) but each time the loop happened their actions became the current and only version of history - until the next time, that is...
^ I see what you mean. I definitely remember the echo effect creating the background chatter that they were able to partially decipher. It had been a while since I saw the episode and this bubble effect makes sense, avoiding the complexity of multiple instances on top of each other (instead it's an echo). 
It does beg the question of much space was affected by this. Obviously Our Heroes weren't routinely able to detect that they'd become displaced in time, so any external cues that they would have picked up on must have been being reset as well.
Alternately, they existed within a pocket universe similar to the one Wesley created for his mom, where if they'd changed course they would have continued to exist in the past...until they reached the time at which they were supposed to impact the B, at which point the bubble might have collapsed and they would have returned to the proper time?
I remember seeing a trailer for this episode before it aired, not seeing the differences between the B and Reliant, and wondering whether the TNG crew was about to encounter Khan.
Alternately, they existed within a pocket universe similar to the one Wesley created for his mom, where if they'd changed course they would have continued to exist in the past...until they reached the time at which they were supposed to impact the B, at which point the bubble might have collapsed and they would have returned to the proper time?
I remember seeing a trailer for this episode before it aired, not seeing the differences between the B and Reliant, and wondering whether the TNG crew was about to encounter Khan.
I think of it less like a pocket universe and more an isolated pocket of our own existing universe; until such time as the loop was broken, there existed a section of Federation space that no-one could enter and no-one could leave - a temporal isolation field, if you will. Inside the field, it was possible to mess about with time, rewind it, reset it etc without any interferce from normal space/time. Once the E-D broke the loop the isolation field dispersed and the ships were free to carry on their way.
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Much depends on whether our heroes are isolated from things they usually aren't isolated from. If they are, why don't they notice this? If they are not, then there's a Starfleet Command also stuck in this loop, and any checking of the Timebase Beacons would just show there has been no time travel because every Beacon is also traveling.
They do say Typhon is out in the sticks. They don't say they aren't making or taking calls. Then again, they don't say they are.
Regardless of the size of the bubble (only from starting point to collision point - or the entire universe?), something does enter it from the outside, namely the Bozeman. At the moment the loop starts, she's not yet in the 24th century, but there's little sense in thinking that she would be "en route", either - rather, she just skips from 2278 to 2368. Sure, she's already spatially where she ends up, but not temporally.
Timo Saloniemi
They do say Typhon is out in the sticks. They don't say they aren't making or taking calls. Then again, they don't say they are.
Regardless of the size of the bubble (only from starting point to collision point - or the entire universe?), something does enter it from the outside, namely the Bozeman. At the moment the loop starts, she's not yet in the 24th century, but there's little sense in thinking that she would be "en route", either - rather, she just skips from 2278 to 2368. Sure, she's already spatially where she ends up, but not temporally.
Timo Saloniemi
I doubt they pinged the beacon that is dozens of lightyears away.
It's more likely like that air traffic control carrier signal which goes beep beep beep. (Die Hard 2, you've seen it.)
Therefor the same signal from the beacon, is beaming through space while that are inside the space time even ever time it loops back.
It's more likely like that air traffic control carrier signal which goes beep beep beep. (Die Hard 2, you've seen it.)
Therefor the same signal from the beacon, is beaming through space while that are inside the space time even ever time it loops back.
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