Cause and Effect - the Bozeman

[Timo]

It's another angle on this "does something penetrate from the outside?" thing, is all. By the fifth loop, the ship should be swamped in overlapping timebase signals, all telling a different story...

OTOH, if nothing penetrates, then the timebase signal dying would be a good indication of something being amiss.

Since communications in Trek are basically instantaneous when they do happen, I doubt we could have any appreciable length of the "It Is Now Eleven Point One One Seven O'Starclock" signal trapped with the ship in the bubble - it'd be dead in a split second. If this particular signal is slower than the norm, then it's one hell of a way to ruin the intended functionality!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Much depends on whether our heroes are isolated from things they usually aren't isolated from. If they are, why don't they notice this? If they are not, then there's a Starfleet Command also stuck in this loop, and any checking of the Timebase Beacons would just show there has been no time travel because every Beacon is also traveling.

They do say Typhon is out in the sticks. They don't say they aren't making or taking calls. Then again, they don't say they are.

You are presupposing that Starships continually update themselves via Starfleet wifi or somesuch. While that is how our mobile phones work today, the Enterprise is designed to work beyond the range of such support systems for extended periods of time. Since the main computer holds THE ENTIRE SUM of human knowledge, I doubt the ship usually connects to the infonet except when strictly necessary. And since the loop only repeated about 12 hours or so for the crew, I can imagine them flying independent for that period of time, no bother.

Regardless of the size of the bubble (only from starting point to collision point - or the entire universe?), something does enter it from the outside, namely the Bozeman. At the moment the loop starts, she's not yet in the 24th century, but there's little sense in thinking that she would be "en route", either - rather, she just skips from 2278 to 2368. Sure, she's already spatially where she ends up, but not temporally.

That's why I think it more likely that the Bozeman was trapped in the anomaly (in a timeless state) for 78 years, rather than flung forward by temporal catapult on each occasion.
During the first loop, the Enterprise approached the point of the anomaly where the Bozeman was trapped, before the smaller vessel was released, hit the larger one and caused time to rewind in the local vicinity, creating a bubble of spacetime in the process. Nothing came in or out of the bubble beyond that point (relative to the outside universe) because both participants were already stuck in it.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Well alls I can say is if you think you can solve this one.. MH370 could use your help, get off the couch and into the NASA!!

 

[Dukhat]

Well, there's only two possibilities: Either the Bozeman was trapped in a time loop for 80 years, or it wasn't. The evidence can be interpreted either way.

 

[Mytran]

Except the evidence clearly shows us that the time loops were caused each time by a collision with the Enterprise-D.
The Enterprise-D was certainly not trapped in a time loop for 78 years, so how can the Bozeman have been?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Future echoes.

The damage form the explosions could have been sent backwards in time, therefore the Bozeman could have been looping without colliding with the Enteprise.

Data said that 5 people were boning just before the ship went boom, so I wonder if the deja vu was making their sex tedious or expert level?

 

[Timo]

And since the loop only repeated about 12 hours or so for the crew, I can imagine them flying independent for that period of time, no bother.

This is certainly possible. It just tells us something about the nature of Trek communications - they might not involve any broadcasting, but would be wholly query-based. Which is good for the issue of our heroes always being able to tell within two seconds that the other party "isn't answering" their hails: if communications aren't based on sending and waiting for the other side to receive and send back, but rather on building some sort of an as-required direct connection, then refusal to fix the other end of that connection already tells there isn't going to be a reply.

That's why I think it more likely that the Bozeman was trapped in the anomaly (in a timeless state) for 78 years, rather than flung forward by temporal catapult on each occasion.

But there'd only be need for a single flinging, because it would be a single occasion for the other ship. Even if sailing into the bubble by conventional means is forbidden, tunneling in using the Typhon Anomaly could sidestep the rules.

Certainly the idea that the presence of the E-D directly triggered the emergence of the Bozeman would help explain the collision as something other than a massive coincidence. There'd just be two separate triggering events in the episode, for two separate time-twisting phenomena: the arrival of the E-D for the emergence of the Bozeman from (or indeed her original capture by) the Typhon Anomaly, and the collision for the time loop. Or then the two could be connected so that the loop creates the Anomaly, in a sort of countertime fashion also familiar from "All Good Things...".

Except the evidence clearly shows us that the time loops were caused each time by a collision with the Enterprise-D. The Enterprise-D was certainly not trapped in a time loop for 78 years, so how can the Bozeman have been?

Why not? As said, it's not the length of the loops that is set - it's only the number of iterations. Those could be of different lengths for different parties, depending on what said parties were doing (sailing through space, sailing through time, or being stuck in temporal anomalies).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

HA!

Wesley, if he'd been there, as a time space event unto himself, would not have been fooled by the loop so convincingly as the rest of the crew, even though it took a while to get his mum out of her bubble universe, that one time.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

The 40 mins or so give or take of that episode never suggested anything about the enterprise - the one with the advanced technology and android aboard getting trapped for those years - as were in agreement Picard reset his clocks however wherever which showed 20 some odd days.

but certainly in the year Capt Batesman was involved for that kind of time period. now can we move on folks?

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Except the evidence clearly shows us that the time loops were caused each time by a collision with the Enterprise-D.
The Enterprise-D was certainly not trapped in a time loop for 78 years, so how can the Bozeman have been?

 

[Paradise City]

The Enterprise's additional presence caused the anamoly to contract so both ships could potentially be thrown clear. Whereas before the Bozeman ran out of steam and blew up because the anamoly was bigger with only one ship and was then too big to emerge from.

It's a bit of strangled off screen explanation, granted, but something I'll throw in the ring anyway.

 

[Mytran]

The 40 mins or so give or take of that episode never suggested anything about the enterprise - the one with the advanced technology and android aboard getting trapped for those years - as were in agreement Picard reset his clocks however wherever which showed 20 some odd days.

but certainly in the year Capt Batesman was involved for that kind of time period. now can we move on folks?

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So - you're saying that the Enterprise was isolated from normal space for 20 days, and the Bozeman was isolated for 80 years? Yes, I think we can all agree on those basic facts, since it was stated as such in the episode quite clearly. But the subject of conversation in this thread is less about what happened (since it is obvious) and more to do with why and how.

The Enterprise's additional presence caused the anamoly to contract so both ships could potentially be thrown clear. Whereas before the Bozeman ran out of steam and blew up because the anamoly was bigger with only one ship and was then too big to emerge from.

It's a bit of strangled off screen explanation, granted, but something I'll throw in the ring anyway.

So - the Bozeman kept blowing itself up for 80 years, until finally the E-D shows up and gives them the chance (however unwittingly) of escape? It's certainly an explanation that fits the facts, and hardly the craziest scenario we've seen in Trek. Thanks!

P.S. That Star Trek sketch was hilarious. Thanks for the link!

 

[Dukhat]

Er, the Bozeman never blew up. It hit the Enterprise's nacelle, causing the Enterprise to blow up. We never actually saw what happened to the Bozeman after that.

All we see is the Bozeman appearing out of some spacial anomaly (not unlike the Ent-C's appearance, which most certainly DID come from 22 years in the past, and was not in a time loop), and then hitting the Enterprise's nacelle. But if the Bozeman was stuck in that exact spot in a time loop for 80 years, then what was the outcome for them for the 79.9 years before the Enterprise showed up?

That's the inherent problem with the time loop scenario here: the loop only seemed to affect the Enterprise. From the Bozeman and her crew's perspective, they literally just appeared in that sector of space, noticed the Enterprise, and veered out of her way just in time, only to learn that they're now 80 years in the future. Literally no time passed for them in their perspective, yet the Enterprise's crew absolutely felt the effects of being in a time loop. So methinks Picard got the situation completely wrong.

 

[Mytran]

All we see is the Bozeman appearing out of some spacial anomaly (not unlike the Ent-C's appearance, which most certainly DID come from 22 years in the past, and was not in a time loop), and then hitting the Enterprise's nacelle. But if the Bozeman was stuck in that exact spot in a time loop for 80 years, then what was the outcome for them for the 79.9 years before the Enterprise showed up?

Exactly why I postulated that the Bozeman was stuck in temporal isolation for nearly 80 years, rather than in a 30-second long repeating time loop.

Although really, there's nothing to say that the Bozeman couldn't have spent 79.9 years blowing up repeatedly, her behaviour only getting interrupted by the presence of the E-D into the time bubble. Heck, we don't even canonically see the Bozeman until the last minute of the action in each time loop, which means that we have nothing to fall back upon but speculation.

 

[Dukhat]

But as I said, she didn't blow up. For all we know, she didn't even blow up after hitting the Enterprise. Her crew didn't even seem to be suffering from the same deja vu the Enterprise crew were suffering from. That's why I have such a hard time with the idea that she was stuck in a time loop. The episode really gave zero evidence that that was the case. It was only Picard's last-minute statement at the end of the episode that mentioned that, and that was only because he and his crew were suffering through the time loop. For all we know he just thought the Bozeman crew were dealing with the same thing, when in fact they weren't. It seemed more likely that it was the Enterprise stuck in the loop, and it was only the intervention of the time-displaced Bozeman that got them out of it.

 

[Silvercrest]

It doesn't make sense that the Enterprise experienced hitting the Bozeman for 20 days of successive loops but the Bozeman only experienced hitting the Enterprise one time. (Regardless of whether she blew up.) What it looks like onscreen is that the Bozeman went through an 80-year time warp, one time — but upon emerging in the 24th century kept repeating the last few seconds of her emergence over and over.

They wouldn't have the same experience of deja vu because it didn't last any time. The Enterprise crew kept reliving the better part of a day and had time to start assimilating what they were experiencing. The only thing for the Bozeman to relive was the last few seconds prior to when they could finally hail Picard. They might very well have had a rapid-fire deja vu experience. Yes, Bateson said they hadn't experienced anything unusual. But he'd just watched the nacelle of an unknown starship coming right at him out of nowhere and barely missed it ... he could have dismissed any unusual sensations at that moment as "having his life flash before his eyes".

At the moment we saw them there hadn't been enough time to assimilate what they'd just seen, much less talk to each other and say, "Hey, I just had the weirdest experience." "You too?"

 

[Paradise City]

We know the Bozeman blew up because otherwise there'd be severty plus years of Bozemans hanging around the 24th century.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Some ppl on this thread . have issues thar are peering to the outside world and it is most certainly spam. Not interested on loony theories im talking about the elisode that was made. Not about what you want
To b made of

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[Paradise City]

We're having a fun discussion about a TV show, dude. No need to get stressed.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

Theres nothing fun about a show that was made 25 years ago that was made in pretty plain english for most folks. MAYBE pre internet this was a large mystery for some.. Like area 51 or whatnot. But its simple. Georsi says it the bridge crew seem to get it. Why anyone else would get anything else from it.. Who knows. And yes there are better Things to do on first week of September in the year 2017.. Hopefully nobody looked DIRECTLY. At the eclpse but it was gorge.

Anyway. ITATE EVERYBODY!!

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We're having a fun discussion about a TV show, dude. No need to get stressed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know that we've respawned this thread twice a year since the TNG forum was born?

Welcome to our loop.