Captian Janeway had no right

[Quantum]

Captian Janeway had no right to force treatment onto B’Elanna Torres in "Nothing Human" against her wishes. Even if you ignore the whole moral and ethical issues surrounding Crell's work there was still the issue of the patients wishes.

Before you hit me with the Torres was needed argument what about when Janeway let the doc stay behind on that planet to sing when he was the only Doctor she had...

Does anybody know if this could be done by a commanding officer in the US military?

 

[Brit]

It's my understanding you can be reprimanded for injuries you might inflict on yourself by accident, (my source is my oldest brother who has been out of the navy for several years so times this might have changed), the military view at least at that time was your body belonged to them.

Brit

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Before you hit me with the Torres was needed argument what about when Janeway let the doc stay behind on that planet to sing when he was the only Doctor she had...

Yeah, and when we hit that episode in THEGodBen's review thread, I said it was stupid of her to even contemplate letting him go off then, too. They have a medical staff of ONE with Tom putting in time as a temp, they CAN'T let him go off just because he's getting a big(ger) head, and I wish that SOMEONE had called him on that.

If they'd just dropped the whole 'Crell Mosset' hologram angle, focusing just on the fact that the solution to the problem is in medical techniques created by Cardassians during the Occupation, learned through experimentation on Bajorans, 'Nothing Human' could have been an interesting episode on medical ethics - is it right to force a life-saving operation on someone when they refuse medical attention? It could even call to that famous quote about the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one - Voyager needs her Chief Engineer. I mean, yeah, it's possible that they could have gotten along fine without her, but the crew (supposedly) should be very aware of every loss - finite crew members, and all that, and do all they can to prevent the loss of any of them.

 

[Timo]

The skipper has the authority to order Torres to die. Shouldn't it be considered a positive thing if she also exerts the authority to order her to live?

I don't think the loss of the EMH would have been quite as crucial as the above makes it sound. Janeway was ready to let go of the Doctor in "Message in a Bottle", too, and trusted that Harry Kim would manage to create a backup. Of course, Harry Kim was no holoscientist, so he fumbled it at first; but we have no reason to think he wouldn't have gotten it right eventually, probably after humbly crawling to the well-known AI/cybernetics nanny Torres for help. Or to Janeway herself, who probably fully well knew how easy or difficult it would be to create a new holo-doctor.

Losing the original EMH would be a loss in the sense that a person the crew knew and loved (or loved to hate) would depart. But it was never indicated that this would be an insurmountable problem for the crew or the ship as such. Losing Torres would probably be a much worse blow, operationally speaking.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

But B'Elanna has the right to refuse any order, annoying or terminal, if she's willing to spend time in the brig or any other punishment they got going at the time right up to execution to which the only logical response is mutiny.

Besides, she told "Quinn" to live, and his only response was to top himself.

 

[2 of 10]

BTW: What ever happened to the Bajorian who outed Crell, did he go the way of so many other Red Shirts on Trek

 

[JB2005]

BTW: What ever happened to the Bajorian who outed Crell, did he go the way of so many other Red Shirts on Trek

Turned up again in Season 7 working on the Holodeck...

 

[freak]

Hate to say this, but, she did have a right to go against B'Ellana's wishes because she felt she was a good member of her crew and I know B'Ellana hated Crell Moset(even though he was a hologram) but Janeway did have a right to go against B'Ellana's wishes in "Nothing Human" cause she was trying to save her. If I had been Janeway, I would have done the same thing she did and to hell with the consequences of the actions! I sure as hell didn't want to see that lifeform drain B'Ellana's energy, did anyone else?

 

[nx1701g]

It's my understanding you can be reprimanded for injuries you might inflict on yourself by accident, (my source is my oldest brother who has been out of the navy for several years so times this might have changed), the military view at least at that time was your body belonged to them.

Brit

Nail on the head. According to the military you are their property once you sign on the dotted line and they can do with you whatever you want. I remember a story a few years ago where a local soldier to had been injured in Iraq and was brought back to the United States for treatment. Unfortunately he lapsed into a coma and the parents wanted to continue treatment (his mother even had power of attorney if I remember correctly) and the military overrode her wishes and pulled the plug.

 

[RyuRoots]

I sure as hell didn't want to see that lifeform drain B'Ellana's energy, did anyone else?

*whistles innocently*

 

[Quantum]

Hate to say this, but, she did have a right to go against B'Ellana's wishes because she felt she was a good member of her crew and I know B'Ellana hated Crell Moset(even though he was a hologram) but Janeway did have a right to go against B'Ellana's wishes in "Nothing Human" cause she was trying to save her. If I had been Janeway, I would have done the same thing she did and to hell with the consequences of the actions! I sure as hell didn't want to see that lifeform drain B'Ellana's energy, did anyone else?

Yeah but it not about what you want or Janeway wants is what B'Ellana wants....

 

[nx1701g]

^ Again not in the military.

 

[Quantum]

^ Again not in the military.

According to Jean Luc Starfleet is not a military organization.

 

[nx1701g]

^ And TOS and Trek XI suggests it is, but let's not get back into this debate again.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If it quacks like a duck?

By the 24th century Starfleet pretends to be a military to acquire a larger allotment of the resources the Federation has to spread out among it's civil services, because in Star trek V, it looked like the very end of Starfleet if the Klingons sued for peace, there was no way by the old guard's understanding of Starfleet that that institution would be allowed to continue as a bottomless pork barrel if there weren't some scary ass bogey man to terrify the piss out of "Joe Sixpack and the Hockeymoms". The unimaginable expense of Starships (resources + lives, there is no money.) could not be justified for merely science and exploration.

But fantastically it was.

Maybe this is why Starfleet seemed like it had balls during the heyday of Kirk's era because they were expected to wreck righteous harm against any bugger silly enough to test their patience.

Picard was a very patient man.

 

[Thestral]

... and yet, whichever side you come down on this wasn't Janeway's worst decision regarding requiring somebody to undergo a medical procedure they were opposed to.

On the bright side, it's in character and part of an identifiable pattern of behavior from Season 2 to Season 5!

 

[Quantum]

... and yet, whichever side you come down on this wasn't Janeway's worst decision regarding requiring somebody to undergo a medical procedure they were opposed to.

On the bright side, it's in character and part of an identifiable pattern of behavior from Season 2 to Season 5!

I beleive this decision was one of her worst. In no specific order.

1. Destroying the Caretaker array instead of escaping.
2. The "dissolution" of Tuvix
3. Forced treatment of Torres.
4. A series of questionable decisions in "The Void"
5. The complete condemnation of the actions of the Equinox crew.

 

[Quantum]

If it quacks like a duck?

By the 24th century Starfleet pretends to be a military to acquire a larger allotment of the resources the Federation has to spread out among it's civil services, because in Star trek V, it looked like the very end of Starfleet if the Klingons sued for peace, there was no way by the old guard's understanding of Starfleet that that institution would be allowed to continue as a bottomless pork barrel if there weren't some scary ass bogey man to terrify the piss out of "Joe Sixpack and the Hockeymoms". The unimaginable expense of Starships (resources + lives, there is no money.) could not be justified for merely science and exploration.

But fantastically it was.

Maybe this is why Starfleet seemed like it had balls during the heyday of Kirk's era because they were expected to wreck righteous harm against any bugger silly enough to test their patience.

Picard was a very patient man.

I have never understood why people respect "fistacuffs" more than diplomacy.

 

[Anwar]

... and yet, whichever side you come down on this wasn't Janeway's worst decision regarding requiring somebody to undergo a medical procedure they were opposed to.

On the bright side, it's in character and part of an identifiable pattern of behavior from Season 2 to Season 5!

I beleive this decision was one of her worst. In no specific order.

1. Destroying the Caretaker array instead of escaping.
2. The "dissolution" of Tuvix
3. Forced treatment of Torres.
4. A series of questionable decisions in "The Void"
5. The complete condemnation of the actions of the Equinox crew.

1) Using the Array was never an option. Being brought to the DQ by the Array killed people and damaged the ship, so being sent back by the Array would kill people as well.
2) He was basically a hostage taker who refused to let two members of the crew come back. No-Win scenario.
3) B'Ellana dies, the engineering team is screwed.
4) Haven't seen the episode in a while.
5) They were committing genocide on sentient beings out of pure selfishness, and she didn't have the survivors all killed. Mercy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have never understood why people respect "fistacuffs" more than diplomacy.

then you don't understand why people like Janeway. my commentary was more about the villainy of the original series than the heroism that cowboyed up to stare it down.

Can you imagine Kirk being slowed for a second by a Pakled?

1) Using the Array was never an option. Being brought to the DQ by the Array killed people and damaged the ship, so being sent back by the Array would kill people as well.

and a 70 year journey home would have what sort of mortality rate?

2) He was basically a hostage taker who refused to let two members of the crew come back. No-Win scenario.

Have you seen Blazzing Saddles when Slim Pickings takes himself hostage?

3) B'Ellana dies, the engineering team is screwed.

She stole the job from Carey. that guy needed some sunlight.

4) Haven't seen the episode in a while.

Actually this was the most unJaneway i have ever seen her. She built a community that rewarded cooperation, punished selfishness and turned it's back on opportunities which were immorally gathered. The only questionable act of the entire venture is at the end when she didn't suggest that some/all of the fleet she had gathered and had been leading didn't stay together for the sake of general saftey for a few years.

5) They were committing genocide on sentient beings out of pure selfishness, and she didn't have the survivors all killed. Mercy.

Genocide is the extermination of a species. These guys were barely accomplices to serial killing or mass murder, I forget which term requires the higher body count, but Rudy said that they only needed another 60 of them to get home, which may mean that they'd only needed to kill 60 of them already to get as far as they did, 40 thousand light years away from Ocampa.

It's not like Janeway tried to accuse,try or punish the space beasties for over defending themselves well past the point of self defence. It was murderers vs murderers really, and lets be completely honest if the space beasties stopped trying to kill the Equinox crew then they wouldn't have had to defend themselves to the death where upon their abandoned corpses became fuel. Fucking lemmings bitching about the cliff being too-oo sexy. The beasties should have just flew off and then their body count would have stopped climbing towards triple digits so quickly. Maybe they were too stupid to live?