Oh lord, don't start this again. And for what it's worth, I think that chaining Tuvok to Neelix is a fate worse than death, and I can only agree with Janeway for bringing him back, even if Neelix comes back as a negative side effect.
Captian Janeway had no right
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Oh lord, don't start this again. And for what it's worth, I think that chaining Tuvok to Neelix is a fate worse than death, and I can only agree with Janeway for bringing him back, even if Neelix comes back as a negative side effect.
I'm starting to think that there are certain thread topics I should simply save my answer to Word and cut and paste my answer to from now on.
That's not how the karmic wheel in Buddhism works dude.
You keep doing it again and again until you get it perfect, and then you get to go to heaven.
No ones brought up Riddles yet?
Neelix suggested that Tuvok got brain surgery to fix his amnesia but Janeway didn't feel compelled to weigh in on the subject in the slightest, respecting the brain wiped version of Tuvok, tabla erasa, as a person in his own right who didn't have to be ordered to respect a prior personality which was incapable of weighing in on the decision making process of which persona got to live or die.
Janeway punked it.
Stayed out of it.
Good girl.
Of course "Neovok" only expressed his "preoperative jitters" to neelix and never gave Janeway the opportunity to force on unwanted medical skulduggery on the Vulcan. So maybe I'm overstating how benign janeway was in this matter just because no one challenged her SUPREME authority.
However Neelix as a defacto representative of Tuvix made it clear to the other half of Tuvix retreading the same shit that Janeway got it right that the clock had to be wound back to first principles. So it was kinda ethics soaked in continuity?
Was this really what the writers were thinking?
You keep doing it again and again until you get it perfect, and then you get to go to heaven.
No ones brought up Riddles yet?
Neelix suggested that Tuvok got brain surgery to fix his amnesia but Janeway didn't feel compelled to weigh in on the subject in the slightest, respecting the brain wiped version of Tuvok, tabla erasa, as a person in his own right who didn't have to be ordered to respect a prior personality which was incapable of weighing in on the decision making process of which persona got to live or die.
Janeway punked it.
Stayed out of it.
Good girl.
Of course "Neovok" only expressed his "preoperative jitters" to neelix and never gave Janeway the opportunity to force on unwanted medical skulduggery on the Vulcan. So maybe I'm overstating how benign janeway was in this matter just because no one challenged her SUPREME authority.
However Neelix as a defacto representative of Tuvix made it clear to the other half of Tuvix retreading the same shit that Janeway got it right that the clock had to be wound back to first principles. So it was kinda ethics soaked in continuity?
Was this really what the writers were thinking?
It's impossible to bring the dead back to life. (Well, unless you're Seven of Nine and have magic nanoprobes but this was before she joined). Tuvix himself said that Tuvok and Neelix were alive within him and he was exhibiting the will to live of two men. However, those two men did not have a voice. Janeway as their captain had to advocate for them.
It was the right call but a no-win situation no matter which way you slice it.
Not a bad point regarding The Enemy Within. But let's not forget that Kirk-V (Kirk-Violent) was an aggressive danger to himself and to others - he had attempted to rape Janice Rand, after all. Also as you noted that Kirk-V and Kirk-N (Kirk-Nice) were dying as separate beings. And most importantly, they chose to come back together.
Here we go round the mulberry bush...
There are of course other ways to bring the dead back to life in ST (Q springs to mind); but you're right, the dead are dead. Tuvix's statement the Tuvok and Neelix were "alive within him" was clearly poetic license, not an actual statement of fact - the personalities, memories, and desires of the (dead) Tuvok and Neelix were comined into the (living) Tuvix.
As you've noted, the dead are dead and thus Tuvok and Neelix don't have a voice. Janeway's forced dissolution of Tuvix to bring back two dead crewmates when he wanted to live was the wrong decision. No win either way, but clearly one decision was worse than the other.
Oh sure, blame the guy who doesn't want to be murdered and say he's a liar. I believe that's called blaming the victim?
Of course he didn't want to die. I can't believe that's even a question about his motive. Every living thing doesn't want to die, and has the right to decide whether or not to continue living. Whatever is wrong with wanting to not die?
Oh boy, another Tuvix discussion! As already pointed out by others, we had a lot of them here in the past. And unfortunately they never fail to leave me incensed.
Kestrel, I'm entirely with you on this. I, too, saw Tuvix' statement about Neelix and Tuvok being alive within him as poetic license. But in the end it doesn't really matter either way, because Janeway had no right murdering one innocent man just to get back two of her crewmembers; even if they were still alive inside of him.
Kestrel, I'm entirely with you on this. I, too, saw Tuvix' statement about Neelix and Tuvok being alive within him as poetic license. But in the end it doesn't really matter either way, because Janeway had no right murdering one innocent man just to get back two of her crewmembers; even if they were still alive inside of him.
You always bring up that analogy, and it never really makes sense. A hostage taker acts on purpose. Tuvix didn't choose to come to live. He didn't want for Tuvok and Neelix to be dead. I don't see how anyone can fault him for wanting to live. It's the most quintessential right of any being.
I don't see where you get the idea that this would be any different if it was Kirk instead of Janeway.
Hmm? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
I wonder if Janeway found a resurrection machine which was powered on murder if she'd use it? Say, throw some random crewman into the grinder and get back two crew she actually missed back. Doesn't seem awful? Mince Neelix and Chell, and she'd get Cavitt back? Hallelujah!
Then, much later in her career during Endgame, "Admiral" Janeway found such a machine which worked under a much more dire power consuption/product rendering ration than 2:1. That girl destroyed the Universe to bring back Seven of Nine.
And if not before, but certainly after B'Elanna was mind raped into raping Tom, Janeway could have and should have, as a last resort, if it seemed like they were ignoring the pending problem, ordered a masturbation regiment (Hmm? Is this what Tuvok meant by meditation?) for her Vulcan crew during their time of the decade.
"Stick you hand on your Johnson, grip it, and now shake it all about. No, not like tha... Oh for goodness sake!? Kim, show them how it's done."
I wonder if Janeway found a resurrection machine which was powered on murder if she'd use it? Say, throw some random crewman into the grinder and get back two crew she actually missed back. Doesn't seem awful? Mince Neelix and Chell, and she'd get Cavitt back? Hallelujah!
Then, much later in her career during Endgame, "Admiral" Janeway found such a machine which worked under a much more dire power consuption/product rendering ration than 2:1. That girl destroyed the Universe to bring back Seven of Nine.
And if not before, but certainly after B'Elanna was mind raped into raping Tom, Janeway could have and should have, as a last resort, if it seemed like they were ignoring the pending problem, ordered a masturbation regiment (Hmm? Is this what Tuvok meant by meditation?) for her Vulcan crew during their time of the decade.
"Stick you hand on your Johnson, grip it, and now shake it all about. No, not like tha... Oh for goodness sake!? Kim, show them how it's done."
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I think you misunderstood my statement. I don't believe Tuvok and Neelix were dead. I believe they were literally alive within Tuvix. I also know if I were in that situation I would want the captain to free me instead of forcing me to be powerless to speak as someone else took over my life.
Like that episode of TNG where Barclay thought he was seeing ghost monsters in the transporter buffer but it turned out to be lost crewmen who he eventually rescued because of a leap of faith?
I wonder if they aged inside him at the same rate? They could have been in statsis or aged an average of the two of them's maturation rate that neelix would have speed Tuvok up and Tuvok would have slowed Neelix down, but then it's just a month, so it's not like it really effects much in the broad scheme of things.
O.
Immortality.
Keep bonding/integrating a patient/subject with other lifeforms which do have extensively longer lifespans. Using biomatter or brain dead, of psychically neutered addends would retain a desired non blended personality no? This would have done wonders for Kes. And Naomi is going to be wanting to be filing for medicade by the time she's 20 at the rate she's progressing.
Kimc. The board statistics claim that you spookily, tis the season, were the 666th person to view this thread in the post above which you made.
I wonder if they aged inside him at the same rate? They could have been in statsis or aged an average of the two of them's maturation rate that neelix would have speed Tuvok up and Tuvok would have slowed Neelix down, but then it's just a month, so it's not like it really effects much in the broad scheme of things.
O.
Immortality.
Keep bonding/integrating a patient/subject with other lifeforms which do have extensively longer lifespans. Using biomatter or brain dead, of psychically neutered addends would retain a desired non blended personality no? This would have done wonders for Kes. And Naomi is going to be wanting to be filing for medicade by the time she's 20 at the rate she's progressing.
Kimc. The board statistics claim that you spookily, tis the season, were the 666th person to view this thread in the post above which you made.
Kimc. The board statistics claim that you spookily, tis the season, were the 666th person to view this thread in the post above which you made.
Just goes to show you stats can be manipulated to mean anything.
What a reckless abuse of power for nearly absolutely no benefit!
How Janeway of you.
How Janeway of you.
Not to mention, you can't bring "dead" people back to life, period. If you can bring them back to life, they're not "dead." It's more accurate to say Tuvok and Neelix were in a coma, or in a state where they simply couldn't speak for themselves.
I found it dificult enough to beleive that 5 people in that first Voltron could co-operate well enough to pilot that huge droid without tripping over their own heals but then they came up with the ships-Voltron with what? 40 pilots could get their shit together to work concisely towards a common goal.
Captain planet ditto? Didn't he turn out different depending on who was wearing the Planeteer rings?
Captain planet ditto? Didn't he turn out different depending on who was wearing the Planeteer rings?
Kimc. The board statistics claim that you spookily, tis the season, were the 666th person to view this thread in the post above which you made.
Just goes to show you stats can be manipulated to mean anything.
My undergrad Business Stats professor made the same claim.
It's even more accurate, and a far simpler explanation of Tuvix's words, to say that Tuvok and Neelix had their personalities, memories, etc. combined into Tuvix which created a new being (Tuvix) and killed the original two (Tuvok and Neelix). When Tuvix says that Tuvok and Neelix live within him, he's speaking as metaphorically as anybody else who says their parents live on through them. And when Tuvix was murdered, splitting him into Tuvok and Neelix, they weren't the same beings but exact duplicates - much as O'Brien on DS9 or Harry Kim on Voyager.
I'll leave the religious discussion of bringing the dead back to life go for now.
But we are not born with complete biographies, inclinations, perversions and predispositions of our parents hardwired into our personalties. Eventually to some degree, but not immediately and undiluted.
A fair point, which is why the parent-child analogy only goes so far and a "blending" (which is unseen in real life) is a more accurate concept. Nonetheless, the creation of a new being (Tuvix) from the death of two original beings (Tuvok and Neelix); as the dead cannot be brought back to life (according to this thread), the separation of Tuvok and Neelix out of Tuvix was the creation of two new beings, exact duplicates (including biographies, inclinations, perversions and predispositions) but new nonetheless.
It's even more accurate, and a far simpler explanation of Tuvix's words, to say that Tuvok and Neelix had their personalities, memories, etc. combined into Tuvix which created a new being (Tuvix) and killed the original two (Tuvok and Neelix). When Tuvix says that Tuvok and Neelix live within him, he's speaking as metaphorically as anybody else who says their parents live on through them. And when Tuvix was murdered, splitting him into Tuvok and Neelix, they weren't the same beings but exact duplicates - much as O'Brien on DS9 or Harry Kim on Voyager.
I'll leave the religious discussion of bringing the dead back to life go for now.
I couldn't care less whether Tuvix was speaking metaphorically or not. The FACT was that Tuvok and Neelix could be brought back to life; therefore, they were not "dead." Tuvix's personal interpretation of the situation is irrelevant, "poetic license" or not.
Define "new." Can you prove that Tuvok and Neelix were "new?" Can you define what constututes a "new being" as opposed to an "old being," or that being "new" means they're no longer Tuvok and Neelix as we've come to understand them? The precise nature and value of consciousness and "personhood" has been an ongoing discussion among scientists and philosophers for ages, and, to the best of my knowledge, it has not yet been resolved.
If Tuvok and Neelix had the same memories, personalities, and genetics as before they were "combined," then why aren't they still Tuvok and Neelix after they were reconstituted? If you really wanted to follow that thought through, you could say that a person isn't the "same being" as before they go to sleep after they wake up. You're not even the "same" person from one moment to next moment. It's called the "Bundle Theory of Consciousness," but it does not provide a practical justification for eliminating a person. Are you the same person you were five minutes ago? Are you not as valuable now as the person who was alive five minutes ago? If I kicked you in the face, does it not matter because you'll be a "different" person in five minutes?
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It's even more accurate, and a far simpler explanation of Tuvix's words, to say that Tuvok and Neelix had their personalities, memories, etc. combined into Tuvix which created a new being (Tuvix) and killed the original two (Tuvok and Neelix). When Tuvix says that Tuvok and Neelix live within him, he's speaking as metaphorically as anybody else who says their parents live on through them. And when Tuvix was murdered, splitting him into Tuvok and Neelix, they weren't the same beings but exact duplicates - much as O'Brien on DS9 or Harry Kim on Voyager.
I'll leave the religious discussion of bringing the dead back to life go for now.
I couldn't care less whether Tuvix was speaking metaphorically or not. The FACT was that Tuvok and Neelix could be brought back to life; therefore, they were not "dead." Tuvix's personal interpretation of the situation is irrelevant, "poetic license" or not.
What?
It's extremely important, in fact critical, to establish whether Tuvix was speaking metaphorically or literally. After all, if Tuvok and Neelix were literally alive within him and wanted to be re-separated, then a strong case can be made that Tuvix is a kidnapper/hostage-taker. In which case, Tuvix becomes a parasitical being and Voyager's crew should have tried to find a way to separate the Tuvix being from Tuvok and Neelix while preserving all three.
If on the other hand (as I maintain) Tuvix is speaking metaphorically/poetically and there are no separate/trapped Tuvok/Neelix consciousnesses, then they have ceased to exist and Tuvix is the only being present - and thus, the only one with a voice.
In our universe, the dead cannot be revived. The Star Trek universe, however is a place where the dead can be brought back to life; thus, reviving Tuvok and Neelix doesn't indicate that they weren't, in fact, dead. See for example Voyager's own "Mortal Coil." "Hide and Q" (and perhaps "Encounter at Farpoint") also establishes that the Q have the power to restore the dead to life.
I don't believe Tuvok and Neelix were "new" in any practical sense, but they stopped existing, were non-existent for a period of time, and were brought back to existence. I suggest they were exact duplicates of the originals, and equally valid and deserving of life and "replaced" the originals. Just as Harry Kim is not the original Harry Kim, but an equally valid and deserving version. Just as Tuvix was equally valid and deserving of life.
There's no "still" about it. Remember, this is a universe in which Tasha Yar came from the future, was captured, raped, and eventually murdered by Romulans, and was later born, grew up, served the Federation, and was killed by Armus. Was Tasha Yar post-Yesterday's Enterprise the same person as the Tasha Yar who was later killed by Armus? No, but she was still Tasha Yar.
Same thing with Miles O'Brien post-Visionary, though much less dramatic.
You're right. A transporter accident, however, does provide a practical justification for eliminating a person, especially when the restoration involves the unwilling death of another sentient being.
My existing, however (or re-existing), does not depend on the death of another person who is unwilling to die.
