Captian Janeway had no right

[Deks]

^ And TOS and Trek XI suggests it is, but let's not get back into this debate again.

Suggestion is one thing, while a direct statement or confirmation is a different matter.

It may be an 'equivalent' to a military as far as defensive/offensive forces go, but SF has far too many functions that go beyond our contemporary concept of 'military' and therefore cannot be considered as one.

 

[Brit]

I think Starfleet is military, or rather the evolved military of the 23rd an 24th centuries. I think if you brought some military officer from the past, say Sheridan from the US Civil war era or even George Patton from more recent times, they would most likely tell you that the military we have today isn't "military."

Starfleet has ranks, discipline and tradition, that s pretty "military." Guy is right "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good it is a duck."

Brit

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

1. Destroying the Caretaker array instead of escaping.
2. The "dissolution" of Tuvix
3. Forced treatment of Torres.
4. A series of questionable decisions in "The Void"
5. The complete condemnation of the actions of the Equinox crew.

1) Using the Array was never an option. Being brought to the DQ by the Array killed people and damaged the ship, so being sent back by the Array would kill people as well.
2) He was basically a hostage taker who refused to let two members of the crew come back. No-Win scenario.
3) B'Ellana dies, the engineering team is screwed.
4) Haven't seen the episode in a while.
5) They were committing genocide on sentient beings out of pure selfishness, and she didn't have the survivors all killed. Mercy.

There's a bigger reason why Janeway didn't send Voyager home with the Array in Caretaker - the Kazon were right on the doorstep and the self-destruct mechanism was offline. Even if they could figure out how to work the Array to send them home before the Kazon battered down the shields and got on board, if they went home, the Kazon would take the Cartaker's technology and use it themselves, seriously changing the local balance of power. Granted, over time, we come to realize that all the Kazon would do with the Caretaker's technology is beat each other over the head with shinier weapons, Janeway did not know this at the time.

 

[john titor]

I think Starfleet is military, or rather the evolved military of the 23rd an 24th centuries. I think if you brought some military officer from the past, say Sheridan from the US Civil war era or even George Patton from more recent times, they would most likely tell you that the military we have today isn't "military."

Starfleet has ranks, discipline and tradition, that s pretty "military." Guy is right "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good it is a duck."

Brit

Not much of an evolved military if bleannas body belongs to the Fed. Although I think Janeway was an exception to the rule who thrived on aligning herself with a certain corrupt element in the top brass of the Fed who were just war mongering assholes. Nearly every decision Janeway made was rash and/or stupid. In fact just plain stupid would do nicely. Its unfathomable how she was ever a scientist in the first place. Normally to be a scientist you need to be open minded and rational. Janeway was neither of these.

 

[Brit]

I think Starfleet is military, or rather the evolved military of the 23rd an 24th centuries. I think if you brought some military officer from the past, say Sheridan from the US Civil war era or even George Patton from more recent times, they would most likely tell you that the military we have today isn't "military."

Starfleet has ranks, discipline and tradition, that s pretty "military." Guy is right "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good it is a duck."

Brit

Not much of an evolved military if bleannas body belongs to the Fed. Although I think Janeway was an exception to the rule who thrived on aligning herself with a certain corrupt element in the top brass of the Fed who were just war mongering assholes. Nearly every decision Janeway made was rash and/or stupid. In fact just plain stupid would do nicely. Its unfathomable how she was ever a scientist in the first place. Normally to be a scientist you need to be open minded and rational. Janeway was neither of these.

You do realize that there are people that love the character of Kathryn Janeway and they are 100% right too.

Brit

 

[john titor]

I think Starfleet is military, or rather the evolved military of the 23rd an 24th centuries. I think if you brought some military officer from the past, say Sheridan from the US Civil war era or even George Patton from more recent times, they would most likely tell you that the military we have today isn't "military."

Starfleet has ranks, discipline and tradition, that s pretty "military." Guy is right "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good it is a duck."

Brit

Not much of an evolved military if bleannas body belongs to the Fed. Although I think Janeway was an exception to the rule who thrived on aligning herself with a certain corrupt element in the top brass of the Fed who were just war mongering assholes. Nearly every decision Janeway made was rash and/or stupid. In fact just plain stupid would do nicely. Its unfathomable how she was ever a scientist in the first place. Normally to be a scientist you need to be open minded and rational. Janeway was neither of these.

You do realize that there are people that love the character of Kathryn Janeway and they are 100% right too.

Brit

No they are 100% wrong, only I can be 100% right.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kathy is only %100 right in %50 of the stories %25 percent of the time.

Hmm? I wonder what would have happened to the next "Incidentally recently dead unspoken for body" Janeway came across if Kes hadn't volunteered Neelix a Lung?

After Suder got "life" imprisonment, could the Captain have requisitioned one of his Lungs since Neelix was a more valuable crewmen than that prisoner?

Which is more of a Tuvix parallel than a Nothing Human parallel but it's still about medical experimentation, not that Janeway enjoyed such unbiased practicality when it wasn't she in command of such grand public works focussed on civil equity (Scientific Method and Counterpoint.).

 

[Quantum]

I have a theory. Remember that TNG episode "The Enemy" when the Romulan needed Worf's blood to survive and Worf refuses. I have the feeling if Janeway was Worf's CO then Janeway would have extracted the blood by force if need be.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Odd though that the Doctor just asked nicely, and B'Elanna cut out part of her brain to fix up his girlfriend. I suppose on that ship it's a good thing that she didn't say "No".

 

[kimc]

Not much of an evolved military if bleannas body belongs to the Fed. Although I think Janeway was an exception to the rule who thrived on aligning herself with a certain corrupt element in the top brass of the Fed who were just war mongering assholes. Nearly every decision Janeway made was rash and/or stupid. In fact just plain stupid would do nicely. Its unfathomable how she was ever a scientist in the first place. Normally to be a scientist you need to be open minded and rational. Janeway was neither of these.

You do realize that there are people that love the character of Kathryn Janeway and they are 100% right too.

Brit

No they are 100% wrong, only I can be 100% right.

Actually you're 100% trolling. Keep it up and you'll end up with a warning.

 

[propita]

Have you seen Blazzing Saddles when Slim Pickings takes himself hostage?

Cleavon Little

"Excuse me while I whip this out."

"Stand back or the n***** gets it."

I think he did such a fine job in the role, I can't imagine Richard Pryor's comedic style in the role.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Have you seen Blazzing Saddles when Slim Pickings takes himself hostage?

Cleavon Little

"Excuse me while I whip this out."

"Stand back or the n***** gets it."

I think he did such a fine job in the role, I can't imagine Richard Pryor's comedic style in the role.

If Tuvix and Little were playing the same game, i wonder if it resulted int he same conclusion?

"These white people are Stuuuuuuuuu -pid."

Or was it "Duuuuumb"?

It's been a decade since I saw the movie.

 

[SRFX]

Janeway's decision to kill Tuvix (and yes, it was plain murder) is the most morally reprehensible decision she made in the entire series.

For me, this act ruined her character. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is an axiom that can be used to justify any atrocity.

From that episode onwards, I just can't like Janeway since being established as a person capable of this act (whilst still flying the righteous flag of the Federation through the Delta Quadrant).

 

[kimc]

Janeway's decision to kill Tuvix (and yes, it was plain murder) is the most morally reprehensible decision she made in the entire series.

For me, this act ruined her character. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is an axiom that can be used to justify any atrocity.

From that episode onwards, I just can't like Janeway since being established as a person capable of this act (whilst still flying the righteous flag of the Federation through the Delta Quadrant).

There have been about a dozen Tuvix threads in this forum but suffice it to say that for as many who feel as you do there are those who believe (myself included) that it would have been morally reprehensible of her not to bring Tuvok and Neelix back when given the chance. That's what's known as a no-win situation and you know by the expression on her face afterwards that it was no picnic for her.

It's one episode though that folks still love to discuss again and again...

 

[SRFX]

Janeway's decision to kill Tuvix (and yes, it was plain murder) is the most morally reprehensible decision she made in the entire series.

For me, this act ruined her character. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is an axiom that can be used to justify any atrocity.

From that episode onwards, I just can't like Janeway since being established as a person capable of this act (whilst still flying the righteous flag of the Federation through the Delta Quadrant).

There have been about a dozen Tuvix threads in this forum but suffice it to say that for as many who feel as you do there are those who believe (myself included) that it would have been morally reprehensible of her not to bring Tuvok and Neelix back when given the chance. That's what's known as a no-win situation and you know by the expression on her face afterwards that it was no picnic for her.

It's one episode though that folks still love to discuss again and again...

There's no justification for murder. It's pretty clear cut.

I would give credit to the writers of this episode over the writers of the similar Enterprise episode 'Similitude'. That episode shied away from forcing Archer into a decision because Sim made the choice (which is fine, even if it's a cop-out).

At least in 'Tuvix' they showed someone making a decision - it just happened to be the wrong one.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There are plenty of justifications for murder. PLENTY. Some of them are not even complete horseshit.

But the words "Starfleet Officer" changes everything.

That's odd, I thought Sim had to be tied down and murdered too?

 

[Anwar]

Uh-huh, and I bet if Kirk had been in Janeways' role in that story no one would have any problem with rescuing Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix.

 

[SRFX]

That's odd, I thought Sim had to be tied down and murdered too?

Archer threatened him, and was about to do it. But in the end Sim made the decision himself after some soul searching, sparing Archer the decision.

It's up in the air whether Archer would've done it or not (guess it depends how attached to the writers were to the status-quo )

Uh-huh, and I bet if Kirk had been in Janeways' role in that story no one would have any problem with rescuing Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix.

I don't recall Kirk being put in the same situation, but I can reference Sisko making a similarly questionable call in an episode everyone seems to know and love "In the Pale Moonlight". Although, Garak actually carried it out, they were both responsible.

The situation is slightly different, and I see it as more Sisko sacrificing not only Vreenak, but his own priniciples.

In "Tuvix" Janeway felt she needed to speak on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix - but know these characters as we do, I believe both of them would've sacrificed themselves to save another life - they were just that sort of people.

Janeway's assumption of knowing what Neelix/Tuvok would've wanted was a bit insulting to the dilemma.

 

[Thestral]

Uh-huh, and I bet if Kirk had been in Janeways' role in that story no one would have any problem with rescuing Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix.

Wrong. Had it been the same story, just with Kirk making the same call, it would've been just as reprehensible.

Doesn't ruin her character, just further defines it as capable of committing murder out of sentimentality. Much like Odo (well, Future-Odo).

Uh-huh, and I bet if Kirk had been in Janeways' role in that story no one would have any problem with rescuing Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix.

I don't recall Kirk being put in the same situation, but I can reference Sisko making a similarly questionable call in an episode everyone seems to know and love "In the Pale Moonlight". Although, Garak actually carried it out, they were both responsible.

The situation is slightly different, and I see it as more Sisko sacrificing not only Vreenak, but his own priniciples.

Difference is Sisko didn't choose to kill Vreenak, and was assuming that the game was up. What Sisko's sin is there was covering up the assassination of a Romulan senator to secure a wartime ally - detestible, but he didn't murder someone himself or condone such.

Now, the bombing of a Maquis planet, OTOH...

Janeway's assumption of knowing what Neelix/Tuvok would've wanted was a bit insulting to the dilemma.

Doesn't matter what Neelix/Tuvok wanted. The dead are dead, and they don't get to come back to life at the expense of a man who wants to live.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kirk was in entirely in the same situation in The Enemy within.

Split into two parts that hated and wanted to destroy each other.

Eventually they hugged it out and chose to reunite into a composite being.

Of course that could be read both ways, either that it is better to be the being that originally "beed" or that it was better to be one person rather than two halves.

Of course that both of him was dying (Just like Sim.) was a contributing factor, but it was still kinda the same.

I'm thinking that Sim died because Titpole wanted Trip, and he loved her so much that he gave her what he wanted even if it meant his own death.

Don't forget that in Relativity that several (mildly) distinct Kathryn Janeway's were integrated into a composite being after the credits rolled. One has to ask if Seven was integrated with the dead bodies of the Sevens of Nines who failed their missions to save Voyagers?

but the decision there was made over and over again not to have multiple copies of each person running around on the ship that day.