News Captain Pike Has Been Cast

[MakeshiftPython]

What are you referring to in particular?

I am okay with considering things like "Vulcanian" and referring to the Enterprise as "Earth Vessel" being early installment weirdness (basically, all the weird shit that happened in the first half of Season 1, when they had no idea what they were doing). But not TOS as a whole.

That's why I said "some", not TOS as a whole.

But yeah those examples are what I'm thinking of. Same with stuff like cloaking tech being a relatively new concept in "Balance of Terror", when ENTERPRISE later featured multiple species with said tech only supposedly "less advanced".

 

[fireproof78]

"More canon than others" was a gentle way of saying "not canon".

More of a diplomatic way of saying "George didn't care."

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Yes and no. Before LucasFilm (not Disney) changed the rules, canon had a tiered system. some things were more canon then others, while in the new system everything is equal canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#Canon_and_the_Expanded_Universe

George himself didn't care much for the EU, and contradicted it all the time in Clone Wars.

A lot of the EU novels were out well before any show though, right?

And isn't "more canon" like "kinda pregnant"?

 

[lawman]

I am okay with considering things like "Vulcanian" and referring to the Enterprise as "Earth Vessel" being early installment weirdness (basically, all the weird shit that happened in the first half of Season 1, when they had no idea what they were doing). But not TOS as a whole.

Or references to "Space Command" (e.g., in "Court Martial") rather than Starfleet Command. Yeah, that sort of thing is easy to handwave away.

I don't think the status of the cloaking device in "Balance of Terror" falls in the same category, though. Unlike minor variations in terminology, that was a significant plot element in the story. It's also noteworthy that it didn't conflict with anything else established in subsequent installments of TOS or later series; it took prequels to run afoul of it.

Now, to keep this on topic, obviously "early installment weirdness" is something that could apply in spades to Pike and the Enterprise of his era. You don't get more "early" than an unaired pilot. I don't think any of us expect to see the crew referring to "time warp factors," or turning translucent when the drive is engaged. Notwithstanding a few conspicuous examples like that, though, IMHO it's really remarkable how much of "The Cage" fits just fine with later Trek, and I hope DSC doesn't go around superseding aspects of it without good reason.

 

[fireproof78]

and I hope DSC doesn't go around superseding aspects of it without good reason.

I am skeptical that any reason will be good enough.

 

[lawman]

So am I. But I reserve the right to revise my judgment down the road in the wake of a DSC story that (A) knocks my socks off with its brilliant storytelling, and (B) couldn't have been told without altering something from "The Cage."

 

[fireproof78]

So am I. But I reserve the right to revise my judgment down the road in the wake of a DSC story that (A) knocks my socks off with its brilliant storytelling, and (B) couldn't have been told without altering something from "The Cage."

Allow me to be more blunt. Even if those two criteria are met, it still will not be sufficient of a reason.

 

[eschaton]

That's why I said "some", not TOS as a whole.

But yeah those examples are what I'm thinking of. Same with stuff like cloaking tech being a relatively new concept in "Balance of Terror", when ENTERPRISE later featured multiple species with said tech only supposedly "less advanced".

Okay. I thought you were referring to Pike's sexism - or in fact the rampant sexism in a lot of TOS episodes. IMHO that is something that should be addressed to some extent, but I know I'm in the minority there.

 

[lawman]

Allow me to be more blunt. Even if those two criteria are met, it still will not be sufficient of a reason.

Nah, I'm not that closed-minded. As much of a continuity diehard as I am (and I don't pretend otherwise), it's not the only thing that matters to me. Storytelling is important, and I will forgive a lot of other things for the sake of a really fantastic story.

I'm still waiting for DSC to produce one, unfortunately. It's ranged between painfully bad and pretty darn good so far... from strikeouts to ground-rule doubles, let us say... but it hasn't knocked one out of the park yet.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Okay. I thought you were referring to Pike's sexism - or in fact the rampant sexism in a lot of TOS episodes. IMHO that is something that should be addressed to some extent, but I know I'm in the minority there.

Ewww, I know for a fact that it's something I'd just ignore.

Just the fact that we've seen female commanding officers in both ENTERPRISE and DISCOVERY is a very healthy defiance of what episodes like "Wolf in the Fold" and "Turnabout Intruder" tried to imply.

 

[fireproof78]

Nah, I'm not that closed-minded. As much of a continuity diehard as I am (and I don't pretend otherwise), it's not the only thing that matters to me. Storytelling is important, and I will forgive a lot of other things for the sake of a really fantastic story.

I'm still waiting for DSC to produce one, unfortunately. It's ranged between painfully bad and pretty darn good so far... from strikeouts to ground-rule doubles, let us say... but it hasn't knocked one out of the park yet.

Again, those differences. I really don't want it to knock it out of the park. Usually when that is being attempted is when the worst stories happen.

 

[Ceridwen]

Nah, I'm not that closed-minded. As much of a continuity diehard as I am (and I don't pretend otherwise), it's not the only thing that matters to me. Storytelling is important, and I will forgive a lot of other things for the sake of a really fantastic story.

I'm still waiting for DSC to produce one, unfortunately. It's ranged between painfully bad and pretty darn good so far... from strikeouts to ground-rule doubles, let us say... but it hasn't knocked one out of the park yet.

What "really fantastic story" has Star Trek previously produced that Discovery fails to live up to?

And inversely, why don't Star Trek's other "painfully bad" episodes invalidate those series the way Discovery's seem to for you?

 

[Tuskin38]

A lot of the EU novels were out well before any show though, right?

And isn't "more canon" like "kinda pregnant"?

In LucasFilm terms it meant the movies or anything created by George was superior to everything else

 

[MakeshiftPython]

And inversely, why don't Star Trek's other "painfully bad" episodes invalidate those series the way Discovery's seem to for you?

This is very important to consider, especially when taking into account of previous Trek series that had very shaky beginnings. TNG is the most obvious. This is why when I do compare DISCOVERY to previous shows I only do that in relation to the first seasons. I want to give this show the same chance to become a better show like its predecessors.

 

[fireproof78]

This is very important to consider, especially when taking into account of previous Trek series that had very shaky beginnings. TNG is the most obvious. This is why when I do compare DISCOVERY to previous shows I only do that in relation to the first seasons. I want to give this show the same chance to become a better show like its predecessors.

This is my preference as well, which is why I am less quick to be so severe towards Discovery. Let's face it, reading the BTS of any show will reveal that most of those are a rolling dumpster fire. We just happen to have more access to information now.

 

[lawman]

What "really fantastic story" has Star Trek previously produced that Discovery fails to live up to?

And inversely, why don't Star Trek's other "painfully bad" episodes invalidate those series the way Discovery's seem to for you?

I've never suggested that anything "invalidates" DSC for me. On the contrary, I've remarked more than once that (on average) I think it had the best first season of any Trek spinoff show, and I even voted "yes, but" on the poll in the "Is it prime?" thread. I think it hit its high-water mark mid-season, and in particular I've said very nice things about "Lethe," "Magic," and "Into the Forest."

Still and all, I'm surprised to see you imply that other Trek series haven't done better than that. In TOS alone there's no shortage of truly excellent, eminently rewatchable episodes, from "Naked Time" to "Devil in the Dark" to (of course) "City" to "Trouble with Tribbles" and many more. TNG had great episodes ranging as widely as "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Chain of Command," and DS9 had "Duet" and "Improbable Cause" and plenty of others, although in both cases they were less concentrated than in TOS, spread out across more seasons. If you don't think any of those series produced anything "fantastic," why are you a fan?

 

[Kane_Steel]

Looks too old and haggard to me.

Pike is in his 40s at this point. Maybe around 42 by STD S2.

Bruce Greenwood looked like this, at a time when Christopher Pike should have been 39!:

Anson looked around Hunter's age in Inhumans;

Could pass for early 40s.


And sadly, this is what Jeffrey Hunter looked like by 1969, the year Star Trek was cancelled, and the year he died;

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Only a few years after The Cage was filmed :/

 

[lawman]

Pike was (according to general consensus if not canon) born in or around 2219, so he should be roughly 38 in DSC season 2. Mount looks like a reasonable fit for that.

 

[fireproof78]

That's what Discovery needs. A poker game.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Pike was (according to general consensus if not canon) born in or around 2219, so he should be roughly 38 in DSC season 2. Mount looks like a reasonable fit for that.

I'm going by Hunter's age, not fanon.

Hunter was 38 during The Cage, so I assume Pike was the same.

That makes him early 40s during 2257-8.

What you're saying doesn't really work anymore, since that would mean Bruce Greenwood's Pike would have only been mid 30s in 2255... :/

The 09 films definitely aged Pike up to 40s, at least.