But we do know a little something about the actions of certain commanders during the Crisis: Vasiliy Arkhipov.
Captain Jellico: Totally Awesome, or Lame?
- Thread starter Anticitizen
- Start date
- Status
But we do know a little something about the actions of certain commanders during the Crisis: Vasiliy Arkhipov.
Proportionately speaking, though, both sides were running a bit blind, which is what made it a standoff in the first place (nor would a miscalculation result in near instantaneous destruction of the Federation and the Cardassian Union. A lot less pressure there). That wasn't the case in Chain of Command.
But anyway, I digress...
Yes we do and no it's not just speculation on my part. There are many, many volumes specifically devoted to the Missile Crisis. I have nine and I've read them. And listened to the tapes.
Please don't make assumptions about another's knowledge based merely upon your own lack thereof.
Jelico was an excellent military leader. What happened on E was classic of what happens when a Marine Corp Colonel is assigned command of a forward located Air Force Base during war time.
I've read several responces about how callous Jelico was in changing duty scheduels. Why do you supose he did this, just to screw with them? No, he had to get a ship of soft researchers in shape to fight a battle against superior numbers in short order. He planned a gruling scheduale of training and drills that would take a physical and mental toll on the crew. Soooo, he went from 3 eight hour shifts, to 4 six hour shifts. This, to me, shows that he does have the welfare of his crew at heart. He wants to make them better, faster, and more capable in the fastest time but understands that they can only stay at peak performance for so long. As a result of this he CUTS their duty time to only 6 hours from the standard 8.
Regarding the whole Riker thing: Riker did not make things happen as fast as Jelico wanted/needed them to happen. I see this as a mis-understanding that grew upon itself. Riker was used to Pickard's "Las se fare" command style and assumed that the changes could be made at the most convienient time. While Picard would have told him to make it ASAP if it was an extra-ordinary situation, Jilico assumed that Riker would exicute his orders ASAP unless otherwise told. You could blame each with equal credibility for this. Unfortunatly this was the "first impression" for both to each other and the relationship built from there.
All and all I have to find the most fault with Riker. In my own personel experance working my way up in the banking world, I worked as an assistant branch manager under three different Branch Managers/AVPs. I went into each situation KNOWING that each one would expect different things from me and understud that it was MY job to adapt to how THEY wanted things done - not how I wanted to do them, or how I thought they should do them.
Well, that's my .02 for this thread.
I've read several responces about how callous Jelico was in changing duty scheduels. Why do you supose he did this, just to screw with them? No, he had to get a ship of soft researchers in shape to fight a battle against superior numbers in short order. He planned a gruling scheduale of training and drills that would take a physical and mental toll on the crew. Soooo, he went from 3 eight hour shifts, to 4 six hour shifts. This, to me, shows that he does have the welfare of his crew at heart. He wants to make them better, faster, and more capable in the fastest time but understands that they can only stay at peak performance for so long. As a result of this he CUTS their duty time to only 6 hours from the standard 8.
Regarding the whole Riker thing: Riker did not make things happen as fast as Jelico wanted/needed them to happen. I see this as a mis-understanding that grew upon itself. Riker was used to Pickard's "Las se fare" command style and assumed that the changes could be made at the most convienient time. While Picard would have told him to make it ASAP if it was an extra-ordinary situation, Jilico assumed that Riker would exicute his orders ASAP unless otherwise told. You could blame each with equal credibility for this. Unfortunatly this was the "first impression" for both to each other and the relationship built from there.
All and all I have to find the most fault with Riker. In my own personel experance working my way up in the banking world, I worked as an assistant branch manager under three different Branch Managers/AVPs. I went into each situation KNOWING that each one would expect different things from me and understud that it was MY job to adapt to how THEY wanted things done - not how I wanted to do them, or how I thought they should do them.
Well, that's my .02 for this thread.
Now THAT is an interesting idea. . .
Seriously, given everything we know about Jellico, why?
Saquist
Commodore
I did not like him at all.
I still don't like him. He was a blackhole.
In Peter David's series New Frontieer he's more easier and not as pissy.
I agree with Dark Journey and Trekker4747;
http://www.trekbbs.com/member.php?u=10825
Still, in a military situation, he got the job done.
The problem is, the crew seemed to trained to be more scientists than soilders.
At crew conference where Jericho is discussing the situation, look at how the crew reacts;
They just located a fleet of Cardassian ships hiding inside a nebula. It's close to a Federation planet they tried to conquer years ago. And Starfleet secuirty or Intelligence itself, at the beginning of the episode, revealed they were expecting to invade the system.
Geordi asks, "What if you're wrong, Captain? What if the Cardassians are in that nebula for scientific research?
Geordi was the one who told (volunteered) Jericho that the Cardassians tried to annex Minos Korva a few years back.
Beverly gets bitter about having to prepare the sick bay for possible casualties, although ironically, because of the way Jericho handled it, she never reecieved any, except for Picard, who was tortured by the Cardassians!
This seems like naive thinking from officers more trained to be explorers and scientists than military personel.
A fleet is hiding inside a nebula, and after knowing they tried to annex a nearby system, assume they must be there for scientific research?
Prior to that, they were caught shipping weapons across a forbidden zone.
Riker's behavior does seems contradictory - in B.O.B.W, he didn't agree with Shelby's style of things, and frequently bumped heads with her. And yes, he decided to go straight ahead and destroy the Borg cube, despite the crews offers to try again to rescue him.
You like the Enterprise crew because it is peaceful, you have loyal friends, and you get to do what you signed up for- explore, research things in a peaceful setting.
And yet, when you have to deal with violent, aggressive cultures, you want someone who can protect your culture, so you can continue to do those things.
http://www.trekbbs.com/member.php?u=10825
Still, in a military situation, he got the job done.
The problem is, the crew seemed to trained to be more scientists than soilders.
At crew conference where Jericho is discussing the situation, look at how the crew reacts;
They just located a fleet of Cardassian ships hiding inside a nebula. It's close to a Federation planet they tried to conquer years ago. And Starfleet secuirty or Intelligence itself, at the beginning of the episode, revealed they were expecting to invade the system.
Geordi asks, "What if you're wrong, Captain? What if the Cardassians are in that nebula for scientific research?
Geordi was the one who told (volunteered) Jericho that the Cardassians tried to annex Minos Korva a few years back.
Beverly gets bitter about having to prepare the sick bay for possible casualties, although ironically, because of the way Jericho handled it, she never reecieved any, except for Picard, who was tortured by the Cardassians!
This seems like naive thinking from officers more trained to be explorers and scientists than military personel.
A fleet is hiding inside a nebula, and after knowing they tried to annex a nearby system, assume they must be there for scientific research?
Prior to that, they were caught shipping weapons across a forbidden zone.
Riker's behavior does seems contradictory - in B.O.B.W, he didn't agree with Shelby's style of things, and frequently bumped heads with her. And yes, he decided to go straight ahead and destroy the Borg cube, despite the crews offers to try again to rescue him.
You like the Enterprise crew because it is peaceful, you have loyal friends, and you get to do what you signed up for- explore, research things in a peaceful setting.
And yet, when you have to deal with violent, aggressive cultures, you want someone who can protect your culture, so you can continue to do those things.
Last edited:
At that point there was no other option and their time was running out.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Funny, cuz all I think of with Picard at his most plodding is Neville Chamberlain. Go back to Q WHO and see how long it takes him before he turns his dog loose on the borg who has beamed into engineering.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
And you should probably not overestimate the value of the contents of what you've read. Winners write or often edit the history books (and their flunkies edit the tapes.)
I've read just about every published word on the JFK assassination, and on the USS LIBERTY, and even though most of it just reaffirms what I already believed, I don't bother to trot it out in casual conversation, because once you go to a certain point with documented info, the other side will go into 'eye roll' mode. And it isn't because they are stupid or uninformed; it is just that you've forced them into a receive mode for way too much data, and they are NOT getting it in the same context -- or with the same mindset -- from when it was presented to you. I've certainly been guilty of this kind of overkill here myself, with respect to more petty trek-related matters.
Totally lame.
His attempts to sit on Riker were clearly born of insecurity - bearing in mind that Riker had saved the Federation from the Borg within days or hours of assuming emergency command of the Enterprise. It's unlikely that Jellico had any actions of similar note and consequence in his service history, so to quickly adopt a confrontational attitude with a guy who was probably the best gift he'd been handed in this new command was stupid and vain on Jellico's part.
His attempts to sit on Riker were clearly born of insecurity - bearing in mind that Riker had saved the Federation from the Borg within days or hours of assuming emergency command of the Enterprise. It's unlikely that Jellico had any actions of similar note and consequence in his service history, so to quickly adopt a confrontational attitude with a guy who was probably the best gift he'd been handed in this new command was stupid and vain on Jellico's part.
I enjoyed watching the character - he was a change of pace from the usual Starfleet officers...but yeah, he's a total jerk. I mean, he takes over this experienced yet traumatized crew and starts acting like a Marine Corps boot camp drill sergeant or something? What the heck? That's the only way he can assert authority? I have to agree with Dennis that it seems more like insecurity or vanity rather than badassness.
And if you think I sound like I dislike him, which I do, you should hear my husband, who actually went through Marine Corps boot camp. His verdict (and I quote): "Total asshole."
That said, he got Troi into a real uniform, which just goes to show that nearly everybody has some good qualities.
And if you think I sound like I dislike him, which I do, you should hear my husband, who actually went through Marine Corps boot camp. His verdict (and I quote): "Total asshole."
That said, he got Troi into a real uniform, which just goes to show that nearly everybody has some good qualities.
Yup. He's tough as nails and tougher--but then, that ain't always a good thing....
Ok, I'm watching CoCp1 right now, and it's before Riker et.al. turn into punks and, again, Jelico just comes across as a hard-ass storming around barking orders and just in general being a dickhead.
This is BEFORE the crew seems to know exactly what is going on, what their mission is, and are just under the belief that Jelico is just their new captain.
He also wants a new "delta shift" as soon as he comes aboard, instantly. Riker explains to him later in 10Fwd that department heads felt it'd create personell problems to do it right away. In otherwords, Jelico's instant change of the duty shifts would create down-time problems for the crew. (as it'd likely mean someone has to get up and "go to work" after less down time than they are acustomed to.)
No, Jelico wasn't awesome or great, the crew becomes more of punks later on, but as soon as Jelico gets aboard he acts like a gigantic ass. I've worked under a few managers like him and you just pray for the day they leave and do what you can to "lay low."
He marches off the bridge after telling Riker to make changes to the ship's bridge stations and some systems and just barks with a punctuating hand "Get it done!"
No, Jelico was an ass. Pure and through.
And I'm sorry, the guy is just dripping with disdain when he gives Picard his book back.
"Jean-Luc, I believe this is yours?" (with a tone, look, and smirk that says "Silly little man and your books."
This is BEFORE the crew seems to know exactly what is going on, what their mission is, and are just under the belief that Jelico is just their new captain.
He also wants a new "delta shift" as soon as he comes aboard, instantly. Riker explains to him later in 10Fwd that department heads felt it'd create personell problems to do it right away. In otherwords, Jelico's instant change of the duty shifts would create down-time problems for the crew. (as it'd likely mean someone has to get up and "go to work" after less down time than they are acustomed to.)
No, Jelico wasn't awesome or great, the crew becomes more of punks later on, but as soon as Jelico gets aboard he acts like a gigantic ass. I've worked under a few managers like him and you just pray for the day they leave and do what you can to "lay low."
He marches off the bridge after telling Riker to make changes to the ship's bridge stations and some systems and just barks with a punctuating hand "Get it done!"
No, Jelico was an ass. Pure and through.
And I'm sorry, the guy is just dripping with disdain when he gives Picard his book back.
"Jean-Luc, I believe this is yours?" (with a tone, look, and smirk that says "Silly little man and your books."
Really?
I assume you mean the Chamberlain of September 1938 Munich Agreement infamy. Feel free to correct me if I've misjudged.
But if that is what you do mean, then you are wrong on so many counts it's almost embarrassing to point them out to you.
Therefore, I'll be brief in describing the essence of your category failures.
Prime Minister Chamberlain of Britain is not synonymous with the captain of an exploration vessel (however significant that ship might be to the nation-state) of a fleet under the ultimate control of his political masters.
Hitler (a monster as it turned out, but a very human one) is not synonymous with Q (an omnipotent being).
If anything, Picard is at fault - on the terms of your own own historical reference - because he plays Churchill two years too early by calling Q's (Hitler's) bluff when he can't back up his "we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them on the hills" bravado with ANYTHING at all.
With belief suspended on several levels, the above basically sums up the situation for Britain in September 1938.
The critical difference is that while Chamberlain's cowardly (in retrospect) deal with Hitler nevertheless provided the UK with an essential year in which to prepare for the inevitable war ahead, Picard (as a captain in the field) was not facing a human foe - but an alien and omnipotent one - that as he was very soon (as within minutes) to discover could neither be beaten nor appeased.
Please note, that I wasn't comparing Picard to JFK, but to certain commanders in the field during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
One is the captain of a Soviet nuclear armed submarine, and the other is the captain of one of the first U.S. ships to encounter the Soviet fleet on its way to Cuba.
My point remains valid.
If this was more cleverly framed I'd call it a straw man argument, but as it's not, I'll name it for what it is - irrelevant.
Jelico is an idiot and an ass.
First of all the Enterprise-D has one of the best efficiency records in the fleet. This is not conjecture, what is the episode where Geordi smuggly sends the lastest warp efficiency figures to his rival? The relaxed low pressure atmosphere of the Ent-D allowed her to triumph again and again. The needs of the entire two-shift crew outweigh the demands of one man.
Also did it occur to anyone that Jelico's actions in the nebula carried a terrible risk of starting rather than preventing the very war the Federation sought to prevent? What if those mines had destroyed rather than disabled or spooked the Cardassians? I find it unlikely the casualities from a limited Cardassian occupation would be more than a larger war. Someone with true guile(not Jelico) could have always played a scorched earth card like Sisko did by seeding the planets in question with Cobalt diselenide.
Also Jelico's "strategy" of looking like an unhinged idiot seems very risky. Were those the actions of a rational man? Since he is not telepathic how does he know that acting like a loon will have the intended affect? Is half-Betazed Troi up to the task?
Being percieved as the aggrieved party also pays big dividends in galatic politics. A more cereberal captain like Picard could have played the diplomacy card for time while additional ships reinforce the Minos Korva area. Do you really think that if the Federation had prepared a proper defensive position it would not prevailed against a great number of undeniably inferior Galor class ships?
Screw Jelico. If he was so great why would they only give him an old Excelsior class. Maxwell the ultimate anti-Cardy captain was tooling around in a Nebula class at least.
(On Edit)
I pretty hate both parts of Chain of Command. The story is ludricrous and implausible and is symdomatic of the decline of story quality compared to the golden era of seasons 3 and 4.
First of all the Enterprise-D has one of the best efficiency records in the fleet. This is not conjecture, what is the episode where Geordi smuggly sends the lastest warp efficiency figures to his rival? The relaxed low pressure atmosphere of the Ent-D allowed her to triumph again and again. The needs of the entire two-shift crew outweigh the demands of one man.
Also did it occur to anyone that Jelico's actions in the nebula carried a terrible risk of starting rather than preventing the very war the Federation sought to prevent? What if those mines had destroyed rather than disabled or spooked the Cardassians? I find it unlikely the casualities from a limited Cardassian occupation would be more than a larger war. Someone with true guile(not Jelico) could have always played a scorched earth card like Sisko did by seeding the planets in question with Cobalt diselenide.
Also Jelico's "strategy" of looking like an unhinged idiot seems very risky. Were those the actions of a rational man? Since he is not telepathic how does he know that acting like a loon will have the intended affect? Is half-Betazed Troi up to the task?
Being percieved as the aggrieved party also pays big dividends in galatic politics. A more cereberal captain like Picard could have played the diplomacy card for time while additional ships reinforce the Minos Korva area. Do you really think that if the Federation had prepared a proper defensive position it would not prevailed against a great number of undeniably inferior Galor class ships?
Screw Jelico. If he was so great why would they only give him an old Excelsior class. Maxwell the ultimate anti-Cardy captain was tooling around in a Nebula class at least.
(On Edit)
I pretty hate both parts of Chain of Command. The story is ludricrous and implausible and is symdomatic of the decline of story quality compared to the golden era of seasons 3 and 4.
Last edited:
Jelico was an unhinged idiot. He "strategy" during the first meeting with the Cardies could've started a war right there.
Riker: "I'll say this about him. He's sure of himself."
Troi (the fucking telepath): "No, he's not."
Riker: "I'll say this about him. He's sure of himself."
Troi (the fucking telepath): "No, he's not."
I'm forced to say no for several reasons.
1.) Micro-managing things to the extent he did impedes any semblance of efficiency.
2.) Radically changing the duty schedule and throwing the crew for so many loops right before embarking on a dangerous mission is unwise, to say the least. Re-assigning so many Engineers to security doesn't make sense, either. Geordi needed them to carry out Jellico's orders.
3.) Being a Hardass is never necessary or conducive to good working relationships.
4.) He should have been more receptive to Riker's advice. That's one of the functions of an XO on a ship, anyway.
5.) He should have reprimanded Riker in a different manner. Publicly chewing him out on the Bridge and then relieving (and emasculating) him was unprofessional and likely to make the bridge an emotionally toxic workplace environment. All he had to say was 'pipe down or I'll relieve you' or ask him to go into the Ready Room for a conference and yell there.
6.) He shouldn't have had to ask Riker to pilot the shuttle. Period. Riker should have said 'Yes, Sir' and did it without any kind of sit down with Jellico. Riker knew what was at stake and Jellico should not have allowed Riker to play games with him. Save the apologies for when the crisis/mission is over.
7.) He forgot that even Military personnel (which does include Starfleet Officers in this case) are people too. Push them too far and they will probably shoot you in the back, claiming the enemy killed you in battle.
Simply put, he was not the right person to be in command of the Enterprise. He should have just been an adviser while Riker was temporarily promoted to Captain.
1.) Micro-managing things to the extent he did impedes any semblance of efficiency.
2.) Radically changing the duty schedule and throwing the crew for so many loops right before embarking on a dangerous mission is unwise, to say the least. Re-assigning so many Engineers to security doesn't make sense, either. Geordi needed them to carry out Jellico's orders.
3.) Being a Hardass is never necessary or conducive to good working relationships.
4.) He should have been more receptive to Riker's advice. That's one of the functions of an XO on a ship, anyway.
5.) He should have reprimanded Riker in a different manner. Publicly chewing him out on the Bridge and then relieving (and emasculating) him was unprofessional and likely to make the bridge an emotionally toxic workplace environment. All he had to say was 'pipe down or I'll relieve you' or ask him to go into the Ready Room for a conference and yell there.
6.) He shouldn't have had to ask Riker to pilot the shuttle. Period. Riker should have said 'Yes, Sir' and did it without any kind of sit down with Jellico. Riker knew what was at stake and Jellico should not have allowed Riker to play games with him. Save the apologies for when the crisis/mission is over.
7.) He forgot that even Military personnel (which does include Starfleet Officers in this case) are people too. Push them too far and they will probably shoot you in the back, claiming the enemy killed you in battle.
Simply put, he was not the right person to be in command of the Enterprise. He should have just been an adviser while Riker was temporarily promoted to Captain.
- Status
Similar threads
