Which makes me wonder -- if Worf had asked for permission to go kill Duras, would Picard have granted it?
Captain Jellico: Totally Awesome, or Lame?
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Which makes me wonder -- if Worf had asked for permission to go kill Duras, would Picard have granted it?
You get a very distinct impression that he wouldn't in that episode. Picard I think generally feels that Worf should be a Starfleet officer first, and says something to that effect in "Redemption" IIRC. But I think that's why he was able to get away with it; because of Klingon customs and such.
In as much as it relates to the Federation and its interests, Picard would not have allowed Worf to kill anyone (even if it were in the interests of the Federation to have said victim out of the picture). However, if it were a purely personal matter (involving Klingon honor), with no effect or affecting Starfleet or the Federation in any way, I see no reason why Picard should not grant Worf such permission. Worf would then be required to follow Klingon law regarding challenging/killing.
I always liked Jellico - I don't know why. I think for many though the problems they have are the changes that he instituted and that he didn't relent when presented with problems from the Enterprise's crew. He expected things his way and, to be honest, there really isn't anything wrong with that. He was meant to be the opposite of Picard and that was what we got.
We had a similar thread to this a few years ago and, interestingly, the results seem to be opposite.
We had a similar thread to this a few years ago and, interestingly, the results seem to be opposite.
It think that it's generally overlooked that Jellico was brought in to do exactly what he did. He had his mission, just like Picard had one, & neither circumstance was ideal, but for the situation, they were the ideal candidates. That's orders. You take them & do them. Who you are don't matter.
Jellico even grants Picard a bit of a berth, during his final plea to ease up on his family of officers, & Jellico even agrees that it would be better to have an chance to get to know them & create a trusted bond with them, but that's idealistic crap. That's not what he was given. He got another man's ship & crew, & told to do something with them that they don't normally do. Any captain, put in the same position would have to do the exact same things Jellico did, even Picard. Putting the ENT crew on edge was the only option he had, with the time he had. "Get it done"? that's probably not his slogan on the Cairo. It had to be for this mission though.
I'm certain that the Cairo crew doesn't find him unreasonable at all. He did what he did because that's what needed to be done. He studied the specs, & the crew & the ship, & the mission. He knew everything & everyone & every variable, before he stepped off the transporter pad. He knew right from the start that conflict & friction was inevitable, so he had no chioce but to make that work for him. that was the mission they gave him
Orders trump will, like the scene in Lower Decks, when the junior officers have to shut their friends up, because they can't talk about it. You don't have to like your orders, but you have to follow them, even when they stand in opposition with what you believe. You don't have to like your mission, but you need to do your damnedest to pull it off
This is why I think this episode is the perfect foil to the earlier Cardy episode "The Wounded" where Picard has to keep the peace, at any cost. He acted a way, in that episode, which was not how he would have, acting solely on his own will, & even tells the Cardy that at the end. Jellico was doing the same, but because you did not know him, it is easy to miss. I think it's very smart of TNG to put such a subtle device in their story. It's a story about the subtlety of communication breakdown, a study in the mechanisms we have which form impressions of those around us. A trully brilliant episode. The TNG Cardassian episodes are easily some of the best Trek ever made
Jellico even grants Picard a bit of a berth, during his final plea to ease up on his family of officers, & Jellico even agrees that it would be better to have an chance to get to know them & create a trusted bond with them, but that's idealistic crap. That's not what he was given. He got another man's ship & crew, & told to do something with them that they don't normally do. Any captain, put in the same position would have to do the exact same things Jellico did, even Picard. Putting the ENT crew on edge was the only option he had, with the time he had. "Get it done"? that's probably not his slogan on the Cairo. It had to be for this mission though.
I'm certain that the Cairo crew doesn't find him unreasonable at all. He did what he did because that's what needed to be done. He studied the specs, & the crew & the ship, & the mission. He knew everything & everyone & every variable, before he stepped off the transporter pad. He knew right from the start that conflict & friction was inevitable, so he had no chioce but to make that work for him. that was the mission they gave him
Orders trump will, like the scene in Lower Decks, when the junior officers have to shut their friends up, because they can't talk about it. You don't have to like your orders, but you have to follow them, even when they stand in opposition with what you believe. You don't have to like your mission, but you need to do your damnedest to pull it off
This is why I think this episode is the perfect foil to the earlier Cardy episode "The Wounded" where Picard has to keep the peace, at any cost. He acted a way, in that episode, which was not how he would have, acting solely on his own will, & even tells the Cardy that at the end. Jellico was doing the same, but because you did not know him, it is easy to miss. I think it's very smart of TNG to put such a subtle device in their story. It's a story about the subtlety of communication breakdown, a study in the mechanisms we have which form impressions of those around us. A trully brilliant episode. The TNG Cardassian episodes are easily some of the best Trek ever made
What I liked about his character was that he pulled it off. In most other Trek episodes where an unlikeable stranger takes command (for example, Decker in The Doomsday Machine) and is antagonistic to the crew, they end up dying as a result of their own hubris, or whatever. Jellico not only didn't kill everybody on board, but pulled off all his objectives, including ensuring the safe return of Picard - despite everybody bitching and moaning the whole way.
That sold me on the character if nothing else: Just the casual, as an after thought, way he asks for them to return Picard as if he's doing the 1701-D crew a favor. Not for a minute did he ever let anyone see him without a poker face till it was all said and done and then in the end he gave the cry babies a compliment as he left the ship.
I initially disliked him. Upon watching the episode again around a year ago, I found that I liked his professionalism. He was a little sharp, but my middle school band teacher was scarier than Jellico. That's not an exaggeration.
The character is also very well-acted, I would even say he owns that character better than some of the TNG regulars did in the first two seasons.
It would have been cool to see him come back in another role in one of the films, or as an alien or something. Great stage presence, I think he could have played a great villain opposite Picard.
Or, even come back as Admiral Jellico, and play a sort of non-villainous antagonist as he did in TNG. Might have been a lot more interesting than the Admiral antagonist they used in INS.
The character is also very well-acted, I would even say he owns that character better than some of the TNG regulars did in the first two seasons.
It would have been cool to see him come back in another role in one of the films, or as an alien or something. Great stage presence, I think he could have played a great villain opposite Picard.
Or, even come back as Admiral Jellico, and play a sort of non-villainous antagonist as he did in TNG. Might have been a lot more interesting than the Admiral antagonist they used in INS.
I agree comletely with this analysis.
Jellico rocked. Would serve under him before Picard any day of the week.
Picard - Captured crewman, Picard negotiates, pontificates, and then debates whether or not he should free said crewman.
Jellico - But a bomb on the captor's ship, call them up and threaten to blow them to hell if they don't have you over...on and by the way, give him their lunch money while their at it*
Or
Picard = Picard
Jellico = Kirk
* Which is how he handled the Cardies, mined their ships and made them ditch their weapons before he'd let them leave the Nebula.
Jellico is to Picard as Cain is to Adama
No... I'd say "Edward Jellico = Bill Adama" (hardass), "Jean-Luc Picard = Lee Adama" (the more casual commander).
There's no real equivalent to Helena Cain in the Star Trek universe. Maybe Luther Sloan comes closest.
I would think Captain Ransom from "Equinox" would be closer to Cain.Jellico is to Picard as Cain is to Adama
No... I'd say "Edward Jellico = Bill Adama" (hardass), "Jean-Luc Picard = Lee Adama" (the more casual commander).
There's no real equivalent to Helena Cain in the Star Trek universe. Maybe Luther Sloan comes closest.
I would think Captain Ransom from "Equinox" would be closer to Cain.Jellico is to Picard as Cain is to Adama
No... I'd say "Edward Jellico = Bill Adama" (hardass), "Jean-Luc Picard = Lee Adama" (the more casual commander).
There's no real equivalent to Helena Cain in the Star Trek universe. Maybe Luther Sloan comes closest.
Yeah, I considered that too for a moment... but at the end of the day, Ransom went into a different direction than Cain.
Ransom wanted to protect his crew at all costs. Cain wanted to hurt Cylons at all costs (even if it meant to sacrifice men under her command).
Ransom's actions burdened his conscience, while Cain had no moral reservations of any kind. Ransom knew what he did was wrong, he just hadn't any choice. Cain was convinced that what she did was right.
You pretty much summed up my thoughts on him. I have to agree, had he been given this crew under normal circumstances and a shake down period, they would've bonded just fine. It would be highly unusual for the entire crew to despise their C.O. Any good C.O. will always have the best of intentions for their crew and care for them, like his own family in a way. It's too bad he didn't become a recurring guest character and got to see him and his crew at work.
I thought he seemed a bit unstable.
Granted the E-D crew didn't do a great job adapting to him, but he didn't do a good job with that either.
A good team knows how to follow orders. A good leader doesn't alienate his team.
Both sides failed in this episode.
Granted the E-D crew didn't do a great job adapting to him, but he didn't do a good job with that either.
A good team knows how to follow orders. A good leader doesn't alienate his team.
Both sides failed in this episode.
Au contraire, mon ami, the mission was a resounding success!
I get what you mean, though.
I get what you mean, though.
Jelico just thought someone made it mistake, and now he was going to erase that mistake!
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