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Canon TOS/TMP Starships-of-the-line

How about this for canon:

TOS era Federation and Earth space vessels
Class I starships-of-the-line
  • Constitution-class heavy cruiser / dreadnought (Enterprise, Lexington, etc.)
  • Miranda-class light frigate (?)
  • Soyuz-class heavy frigate (?)

If you're going just from the canon, I don't believe there is anything that describes either the Miranda Class or the Soyuz Class as frigates. Actually, I'm not even sure the Miranda Class designation itself is canon, although perhaps it appears on an Okudagram somewhere.

Class II

  • unknown transport/survey/science probe ships (Woden, Antares, S.S. Dierdre, U.S.S. Carolina)
Again, just from the canon... there is nothing in "Friday's Child" that specifies what type of ship the Carolina was. Dierdre was explicitly stated to be a freighter, but nothing was mentioned about the Carolina's role.

Also, IIRC Woden was an automated "robot" ship... I'd be tempted to put those in a different category than crewed vessels.

Class III
  • Oberth-class scout/science/survey ships (Grissom?)
Just out of curiosity, why is the science/survey ship Grissom in a separate category from the survey/science probe ship Antares?

Class IV
  • merchant service ships (S.S. Beagle)

Class V
  • space cruisers (S.S. Aurora)
  • prospecting scouts (Harry Mudd's "wiving settlers" ship, Cyrano Jones' Spacematic)
I'm guessing you're not counting TAS as part of the canon? I didn't see anything referencing the Huron-type, but it would probably go into your "Class II" category.

(Sorry, just offering feedback, wasn't meaning to pick apart your list. On rereading, it seems to come off a lot more negative than I was intending. No offense meant.)
 
Actually, I'm not even sure the Miranda Class designation itself is canon, although perhaps it appears on an Okudagram somewhere.

The name "Miranda" class didn't become official until TNG's "Night Terrors," when it was used on the dedication plaque for the USS Brattain (although I'm of a mind that, like the Oberth class, the dedication plaque was made before the filming model was chosen, and was probably meant to represent a much newer class than the Reliant, based on the registry number. But that's a topic for another post.)

Again, just from the canon... there is nothing in "Friday's Child" that specifies what type of ship the Carolina was. Dierdre was explicitly stated to be a freighter, but nothing was mentioned about the Carolina's role.

I'll have to watch the ep again, but I thought the Carolina was referred to as a starship in the dialogue.

Also, IIRC Woden was an automated "robot" ship... I'd be tempted to put those in a different category than crewed vessels.

I think he was basing that on TOS-R, which reused the Antares CGI model for the Woden, sans the command pod (although the ship is facing away from the camera so we can't actually see if it has one or not.)
 
Lest we forget: TOS-R's "Charlie X" revealed a space vessel named Antares, given an NCC of 501. That cuts right into the FJ destroyer-scout list. Mr. Roddenberry, by way of Mr. Arnold, made it very clear as far back as 1989 that FJ's Tech Manual was not recognized by the studio.

Okay, so that just means that the Jenghiz doesn't exist. That doesn't mean that the rest of the Saladin class's run is contradicted, unless there is another canon ship (besides the Kelvin) that also has a registry number that is also used by a Saladin.

Thus far, only the Jenghiz (NCC-501) and Rahman (NCC-514) have fallen into this category.
 
If you're going just from the canon, I don't believe there is anything that describes either the Miranda Class or the Soyuz Class as frigates. Actually, I'm not even sure the Miranda Class designation itself is canon, although perhaps it appears on an Okudagram somewhere.

Again, just from the canon... there is nothing in "Friday's Child" that specifies what type of ship the Carolina was. Dierdre was explicitly stated to be a freighter, but nothing was mentioned about the Carolina's role.

Also, IIRC Woden was an automated "robot" ship... I'd be tempted to put those in a different category than crewed vessels.

Just out of curiosity, why is the science/survey ship Grissom in a separate category from the survey/science probe ship Antares?

I'm guessing you're not counting TAS as part of the canon? I didn't see anything referencing the Huron-type, but it would probably go into your "Class II" category.

(Sorry, just offering feedback, wasn't meaning to pick apart your list. On rereading, it seems to come off a lot more negative than I was intending. No offense meant.)

No offense taken at all.

Making a list like this, based on the on-screen spoken and clearly viewed canon, is a very awkward exercise to be sure. To some, especially fans of FJ's Tech Manual, this kind of list is a minefield.

I learned in 1989 from a mutual contact that Mr. Arnold had privately (later publicly) announced that Mr. Roddenberry and the studio were adamantly opposed to any concrete ties to Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's 1975 Tech Manual and all the other materials and derivatives that followed. Roddenberry made up some elaborate rules to monkey-wrench what he saw as a parallel evolution to his creation (the STAR TREK franchise); these rules included the convoluted Warp 10 Infinity rule.

While I own FJ's Tech Manual (first edition, bought when it first came out on sale) and find it filled with fascinating ideas, it has become clear that FJ's works were parallel to the TREK franchise, not embedded in it. The Tech Manual's material on the Articles of Confederation, combined with ship class construction lists tied to specific stardates, made it clear that FJ was asserting that the United Federation of Planets only came into being within James T. Kirk's lifetime, a notion loosely derived from a strict interpretation of Kirk's conversation with Garth about Axanar in "Whom Gods Destroy". While I can appreciate that some FJ fans want to see the Tech Manual embedded in TREK canon, the problem I see is that if you literally do that, you retroactively assert that the Treaty of Axanar was the first step to the foundation of the Federation, not simply an important milestone in the already-existing Federation's recent history.

TAS (STAR TREK: THE ANIMATED SERIES, 1973-4) was pooh-poohed by Arnold as well, and does have its share of continuity flaws. (Note: FJ's Tech Manual, which was published almost concurrently TAS' first-run on NBC Saturday mornings' lineup, contains no references at all to Huron, Independence, the aqua shuttle, life support belts, etc.) You are correct that Huron was absent from my (first draft) list. This was not an intentional omission. I just wasn't sure if Huron was meant to be a separate class or not; or whether it was even a good idea to interpret the specifics of TAS so literally as part of canon. (Remember, the Starship Enterprise visited the center of the Galaxy in TAS, which would seem to contradict TMP5: THE FINAL FRONTIER.)

As far as the Grissom/Oberth being listed as Class III space vessels and the Independence/Huron and others being listed as Class II: my thinking, based largely on my interpretation of what was seen in TOS-R and TMP3: TSFS, would be that because Independence (and presumably others of her overall kind of transport vessels) are built to haul large amounts of cargo, these ships are more massive (either volumetrically or by actual mass) than small scout-like ships like that Grissom/Oberth. Hence, Independence/Huron/Antares would be of a superior class than "smaller" ships like Grissom.

RE: the Woden. Woden languishes in a strange never-neverland of discontinuity wherein TOS-R shows us a different kind of vessel than what was seen in TOS, so it isn't entirely clear what it "really" was, but for sake of argument we can at least try using the newer TOS-R assertion for the sake of this exercise. You'll recall what Spock told Kirk in "The Ultimate Computer" (my emphasis underlined):

CAPTAIN KIRK IS OPERATING EQUIPMENT IN HIS QUARTERS AS MCCOY TALKS WITH HIM

KIRK: 20th century Earth. 'All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer by'. You could feel the wind at your back in those days. The sounds of the sea beneath you. And even if you take away the wind and the water, it's still the same. The ship is yours. You can feel her. And the stars are still there, Bones.

INTERCOM WHISTLE GOES OFF.

UHURA [OC]: Captain Kirk to the bridge, please! Captain Kirk!

KIRK: Kirk here.

SPOCK [OC]: Another contact, Captain. A large, slow-moving vessel.

SPOCK, ON THE BRIDGE...

SPOCK: Unidentified. This is not a drill.

KIRK AND MCCOY, IN KIRK'S QUARTERS...

KIRK: On my way.

ON THE BRIDGE... KIRK AND MCCOY ENTER FROM THE TURBOLIFT

UHURA: Captain, there's no response to any of our signals, but M-5 has given us an autorelay.

SPOCK: M-5 has identified her, Captain. The Woden. Listed in Starfleet Registry as an old-style ore freighter converted to automation. No crew. Coming into visual range.

This quote would seem to make some things apparent, both in TOS and TOS-R:

  • Woden is a large, slow-moving vessel.
  • Woden was converted to automation, so she no longer has any crew.

Apparently, by inference, Woden may, once upon a time, have been a crewed ore freighter. She has since been converted. But Spock made it clear, she is a "large, slow moving vessel". Since it is a foregone conclusion that ships like the Woden (and, presumably, Antares, Huron, and Independence, as well as the Sherman's Planet cargo drones) are designed to carry cargo, the ships are structured for large internal volumes to be filled (and off-loaded) efficiently.

While the on-screen appearance of Antares with the Enterprise makes it clear the Antares is a smaller vessel overall, much like the Grissom presumably would be, the Antares' structure, and her mass, are assumed to be greater than a scout like the Grissom. As such, I made Antares a Class II vessel and Grissom a Class III. This would also put Grissom and her Oberth Starfleet siblings in the next immediate class above merchant marine ships like the Class IV S.S. Beagle.

Finally, your correct about the Miranda and Soyuz not being called frigates. You are also correct that Miranda (at least, as far as I can recall) was never spoken as a starship class name by any of the characters. However, the term "frigate" was used generally to describe some unseen ships in TNG's "Conspiracy", thus establishing that such a type of ship was in service. I simply drew the distinction (and least, in the TOS and TMP eras) that multi-hulled ships like Enterprise was called "cruisers", while single-hulls ships (not counting nacelles and pods) like Reliant and Constellation would be considered frigates. I did this because, as I understand it, the original use of the term "cruiser" was to delineate ships outfitted for an extended cruise. Ships not so outfitted would not be "cruisers" but could be called by another ship-class name of similar ship-of-the-line stature: "frigates". Since the multi-hulled "cruisers" of the Constitution and Excelsior classes contain elaborate mission facilities (the 14 science labs Kirk boasted about in "Operation Annihlate") and crew habitats for extended deep-space cruises, while ships such as Saratoga and Reliant seem to take more restricted near-home patrol runs (and there was nothing in what Capt. Batesman of the Bozeman said to contradict this), it would seem logical that ships of this nature, with their simpler hulls, would be frigates instead. So, this assertion does stretch beyond canon, and it does nod to fan-made literature, but it is a logical extrapolation based on what was seen and heard in canon.
 
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Class II
  • unknown transport/survey/science probe ships (Woden, Antares, S.S. Dierdre, U.S.S. Carolina)
This looks like fans rationalizing the fact that previous fans forgot the Carolina by knocking it down a class.

There is nothing in TOS that says Carolina isn't the Enterprise's exact duplicate... in fact, it could be NCC-1700. Without any evidence, there is no reason to lower its class.

Consider this, these are the ships given the USS distinction in TOS...
Carolina, Constellation, Enterprise, Exeter, Farragut, Intrepid, Lexington, Valiant and Yorktown​
There is nothing in TOS that suggests that any of these ships are different from each other.

:rolleyes:

... of course if you were also considering the Farragut, Intrepid, Valiant and Yorktown to be Class II as well, then that would at least be consistent with what we know about them from TOS.

Note: I didn't include the Republic, but as United Starship might be what USS stands for, it could be included in the list above.
 
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We do not know for sure which class of starship Farragut, Intrepid, Carolina, Valiant and Yorktown to have been. We can go on naming schemes to establish that Carolina doesn't fit the same naming scheme as the others, at least some of which were names for World War II-era American aircraft carriers. Carolina sticks out like sore thumb in that regard.

Another angle: Why would a fellow Class I starship, either equal in ability or somewhat similar to a Constitution-class ship like the Enterprise, be assigned to the same sector as the Enterprise, and be suddenly calling for help? If the Klingon ship couldn't handle the Enterprise, it's unlikely it would be attacking another Class I starship.

About the only way I can see that Carolina could be a Class I starship calling help be if she were part of an unknown (and unseen) class of Class I starships that had a significantly lesser defensive profile than other Class I starships.
 
Here's a revised list, still obviously evolving...

TOS era Federation and Earth space vessels

Class I starships-of-the-line
  • Constitution-class heavy cruiser / dreadnought (Enterprise, Lexington, etc.)
  • Miranda-class (?) light frigate (?)
  • Soyuz-class heavy frigate (?)

Class II
  • unknown transport/survey/science probe ships (Woden, Antares, Independence, Huron, S.S. Dierdre, U.S.S. Carolina)

Class III
  • Oberth-class scout/science/survey ships (Grissom?)

Class IV
  • merchant service ships (S.S. Beagle)

Class V
  • space cruisers (S.S. Aurora)
  • prospecting scouts (Harry Mudd's "wiving settlers" ship, Cyrano Jones' Spacematic)



TMP era Federation and Earth space vessels


Class I starships-of-the-line
  • Excelsior-class dreadnoughts (NX/NCC-2000, Enterprise-B)
  • Constitution-class refit heavy cruisers (refit Enterprise, Enterprise-A)
  • Miranda-class (?) refit light/medium frigates (NCC-1887 Saratoga, Reliant)
  • Soyuz-class heavy frigates (Bozeman)
  • Constellation-class heavy frigates (Hathaway?)

Class II
  • ? unknown transport/survey/science probe ships (were ships like Antares and Dierdre refit or replaced with similar but more advanced classes of ships?)

Class III
  • Oberth-class scout/science/survey ships (Grissom)

Class IV
  • merchant service ships (?)

Class V
  • warp-sled courier (Surak in TMP)
 
We do not know for sure which class of starship Farragut, Intrepid, Carolina, Valiant and Yorktown to have been. We can go on naming schemes to establish that Carolina doesn't fit the same naming scheme as the others, at least some of which were names for World War II-era American aircraft carriers. Carolina sticks out like sore thumb in that regard.
So we can assume by that logic that Defiant, Excalibur, Hood, Potemkin and Valiant are class II ships as well? There are some painful fingers in that bunch of names to go along with the Carolina's sore thumb.

Another angle: Why would a fellow Class I starship, either equal in ability or somewhat similar to a Constitution-class ship like the Enterprise, be assigned to the same sector as the Enterprise, and be suddenly calling for help? If the Klingon ship couldn't handle the Enterprise, it's unlikely it would be attacking another Class I starship.

About the only way I can see that Carolina could be a Class I starship calling help be if she were part of an unknown (and unseen) class of Class I starships that had a significantly lesser defensive profile than other Class I starships.
The idea that you wouldn't call for help if you are the same class as the Enterprise is painfully flawed. The Constellation called for help a few episodes before and the Enterprise went for help during Errand Of Mercy. The loss of Constellation, Intrepid, Valiant and Defiant and death of the Exeter crew show that starships can get in over their heads in some situations.

So are you saying that Star Fleet Command's general order is for starships to not request help? If that were the case, the Enterprise would still be stuck in the solar system from The Paradise Syndrome today as they had no way to repair the warp drive. At best speed without warp drive the Enterprise took three months to cross that solar system.

If the idea that starships don't have overlapping areas of patrol is an argument, how did the Enterprise run across Exeter and Defiant? How was Enterprise in range of Intrepid and Constellation? Plus the Enterprise had McCoy onboard who had previous experience with the culture in Friday's Child, maybe the Enterprise was diverted to Carolina's sector for this mission.

The call from the Carolina was assumed to be fake, and no details were given. At that point the number and strength of the Klingons was unknown (but turned out to be a small scout ship). Given that, I doubt it attacked any ships (even the weakest transport) during that episode. When it tried to block the Enterprise, it quickly backed down rather than fight.

There is no evidence that the Carolina wasn't like the Enterprise and some supporting that it was.

So again, why demote it to fit previous errors of fans?
 
Probably because the production team list of Starship names doesn't include Carolina. "Friday's Child" is very early into the second season of Star Trek.
 
It has just occurred to me that 'Constitution Class' might not even be a Starfleet designation, since it appears out of sync with their known designations ( Starship Class etc ).

Perhaps it's what the design bureau called that particular vessel design.
 
I tend to lean that way too, given the lack of evidence of any sort of "Constitution Class" during TOS years. There's also the subtle (but onscreen) presence of "Starship Class" and "Enterprise Class" in TOS and ST2, respectively.

FWIW, the schematic Khan was looking at in Space Seed had no mention of "Constitution Class" on it and the tech manual Scotty was studying in Tribbles was too small to see any written details on it.
technicalmanualsfromSSandTTWT_zpsb5e7305d.jpg%7Eoriginal

(more details in this old thread)

What is clear however is that by the time of ST6 the term "Constitution Class" had been applied in some manner to the Enterprise-A, since it is on the picture that Scotty examines in the dining room.

A change of terminology in-universe is not too much of a stretch, IMO.
 
So again, why demote it to fit previous errors of fans?

Demote? :vulcan:
In TOS all active Star Fleet ships were like the Enterprise. You rationalize demoting it because previous fans (Jein and Okuda) forgot it, and one of them (Okuda) later decided to demote it to a Daedalus class to cover the mistake.

To be sure, had the name not included USS, you could put it anywhere... but in TOS a ship with USS was assumed to be like the Enterprise.

Probably because the production team list of Starship names doesn't include Carolina. "Friday's Child" is very early into the second season of Star Trek.

This would seem a logical part of it.
That isn't a canon reason (which is part of your thread's title) and if that was a logical reason for a ship to be class II then the Defiant would be there too (as it didn't appear on any production list of starships).

Of course if you are trying to do the same thing as Okuda (covering for his mistake) by rationalizing keeping it in class II even though the evidence doesn't support it because you already put it there... then be my guest.

You wouldn't be the first to do bad research to justify other's erroneous research. But this is a fan list, I'm used to doing academic research where this type of thing would be cut down instantly. And I'd rather keep my research (even in Trek things) based on those standards*.

You have all the data needed, you can decide what your standards of research you are going to follow.



* It should be noted that the other reason for holding to high standards historical research is to make sure that none of my work falls on the wrong side of the fair use aspect of copyright law.
 
To be fair to Mr. Okuda, he was putting together a huge volume of work, mostly without the resources that we take for granted today. Some mistakes were bound to crop up.

Now with that said, There were decisions that just really didn't make sense to me. One of those was Jein using the wall chart from "Court Martial" to match up names of Constitution class ships to NCC numbers, when it would be highly implausible that ten (of twelve) Connies would be simultaneously in need of repair at the exact same starbase (and not even accounting for the fact that some of the numbers were erroneously listed due to the limitations of standard-def broadcasting; so NCC-1864 ended up being 1884 or 1664.)

The other issue is the aforementioned U.S.S. Carolina. For all intents and purposes, there's no reason not to assume that she was a Connie as well, since every active-duty Starfleet vessel seen in the show seemed to be one. But even if she was some other class of starship, making her a Daedalus makes zero sense as well, since it was quite well-established that the Daedalus class was no longer operating by TOS.
 
True, but I keep forgetting if the Carolina was actually supposed to be a Starfleet vessel.

If not, it seems plausible that when Starfleet retired the Daedalus class from service, they were sold off. I find it possible that freight and transport operators were using members of the Daedalus class if they could afford them, especially if they could have used the shields, engines, or weaponry, which however obsolete by then, might still be good against pirates or other hostiles, such as marauding Klingons, when they operated in lesser protected space.

Or perhaps I've just played too much Flash Trek: Broken Mirror?
 
In TOS all active Star Fleet ships were like the Enterprise.

Who says so? I agree, in TOS unto itself in total isolation, there was only one class of vessel seen. But from TAS forward, other classes of Starfleet starships were indeed shown; this list is retroactive.
Which doesn't change the argument.


Lets take your argument outside of this topic and apply it to something else, like... murder.
-insert dramatic music here-

Wingsley, you are on trial for murder. There is some evidence that you might be innocent, and no evidence that you are guilty. One of the forensic experts screwed up in earlier data collection and one of his friends attempted to cover for him by inserting false conclusions. This has been pointed out, but the public generally assumes you to be guilty now even though there is no evidence of this. In closing arguments the prosecutor (rightly) points out that there are murderers in the world... so we hang you.

:techman:

This is your logic argument at work... is this what you want to stick with? :wtf:
 
Note: I am aware that Memory Alpha has a different interpretation on this. I think their interpretation is speculation.

In "The Menagerie, Episode 1", Commodore Mendez said:

Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured.

This is the only class of starship mentioned in dialog in TOS. I don't think it is the same as the Class J Cargo Ship from "Mudd's Women". The designation of starship was reserved for capital ships of Starfleet. Since both the Antares and the Class J starship had baffle plates, I think it is possible that they were contemporary ships and both were older than the Enterprise.

Constitution Class is from the schematic seen in "The Trouble with Tribbles", which was later reproduced in T-Zine. The chart in "Court Martial" is associated with two named starships: the Intrepid and the Enterprise.
 
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