Canon TOS/TMP Starships-of-the-line

[Wingsley]

There is some additional retroactive continuity as well: in TNG's "The Naked Now", Capt. Picard reads off a computerized historical report that the U.S.S. Enterprise was a Constitution-class ship. They used the wrong version of the Enterprise's schematic with a very brief summary of "The Naked Time", but there it was.

 

[Mytran]

That version of the Enterprise (the refit) was indeed a Constitution class, as per TUC.

It's interesting that in the TNG-R version the Enterprise graphic was replaced, but with a preproduction sketch from TOS that differs quite noticeably from the final version. So, was that Constitution class as well?

 

[Ithekro]

The assumption would be that it was a Constitution-class ship since it was constructed. Or, by the 24th century, it has been retroactively considered a Constitution-class ship for its entire career. This is not without precident. The name a ship class is called can change over time and eventually ships of that type are considered to be on one class designation in general. It sometimes isn't the name it started out with.

Take the Revenge-class battleships of the Royal Navy. They vasilate between begin called Revenge-class, Royal Sovereign-class, and just R-class, for there nearly 35 years of service. Or the American Essex-class aircraft carriers. They got a massive list of classes, not only because of differances in construction during the war, but the massively different refits and rebuilds done to various ships of the class until the 1970s, and even then they has a bunch of different class names while in reserve until the 1990s.

 

[Timo]

It's also possible that Starfleet is being anal-retentively systematic about it all (Wouldn't we prefer it that way? Huh, huh? Wouldn't we?) and refers to each variant by the name of the first vessel built or modified to the specs. And it so happens that USS Constitution was the first vessel to be built (modified?) to the specs seen in "The Naked Now", as well as the first vessel modified to the specs represented by the E-A (but not necessarily the E-nil-refit, which had internal differences).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DEWLine]

Now with that said, There were decisions that just really didn't make sense to me. One of those was Jein using the wall chart from "Court Martial" to match up names of Constitution class ships to NCC numbers, when it would be highly implausible that ten (of twelve) Connies would be simultaneously in need of repair at the exact same starbase (and not even accounting for the fact that some of the numbers were erroneously listed due to the limitations of standard-def broadcasting; so NCC-1864 ended up being 1884 or 1664.)

Agreed on that set of points in particular. No way the laws of probability would allow for such a situation.

 

[Wingsley]

Unless "twelve like it in the fleet" was referring to something other than starship classes. Why can't it refer to Constitution-class starships from Earth?

 

[DEWLine]

How likely is it that all the starships docked on a specific day at a specific starbase would be of the same starship class?

I can't see it happening with their real-world wet-navy counterparts. Much less so with starships. All respect to Greg Jein, but that's a probability handwave only Marvel's Scarlet Witch could manage.

 

[yenny]

I believe that the reason that most of the Connies were there. Is that prior of the episode and some time after the Balance of Terror episode. That they were sent on a combat mission into Romulan territory and destroy a starbase or a outpost there.

It would had been in respond of Romulan attack on Federation outpost, which took place in Balance of Terror.

The reason I think the Romulans attack the Federation outpostes. Is to check for weakness, responds time and see if Starfleet will respond or let it slide.

But because the Romulan ship that were sent to attack those Fedration outposts, was destroyed by it Commander after conflictation with the USS. Enterprise, It most likely those Connies are at Starbase 11 for some other reason then what I think.

 

[Dukhat]

How likely is it that all the starships docked on a specific day at a specific starbase would be of the same starship class?

It's ridiculously unlikely, unless that particular starbase was the only one in existence with the ability to repair Constitution class vessels, and even if that unlikely scenario was the case, you still wouldn't want every Connie there at the exact same time.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, anyone?

Pennsylvania-class battleships
* USS Pennsylvania
* USS Arizona

Nevada-class battleships
* USS Nevada
* USS Oklahoma

Tennessee-class battleships
* USS Tennessee
* USS California

So, it happens in real life, where every ship of a class is docked at one port.

 

[StarCruiser]

Of course - those were battleships, not explorers...

But I digress.

 

[JES]

Yes, but I think that the U.S. Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Tennessee-class battleships and the Federation Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser could be considered ships of the line, and pretty important to their respective fleets.

Well, most of them had their upgrades about 10 years ago, but I guess that they could still have been considered up to date for their time.

 

[Wingsley]

Thanks to Mytran for bringing up an important point...

In the remastered version of TNG's "The Naked Now", Data discovers the Psi 2000 water/intoxication sickness (TOS' "The Naked Time") while performing a search in the Enterprise-D's database. When Data reports the discovery, the updated data graphic is not of the refit NCC-1701 Enterprise, but of the original (TOS) Enterprise. This seems to put TNG-R in the awkward position of shoe-horning-in a retcon that establishes the TOS Enterprise as a Constitution-class vessel.

 

[Timo]

Yes, but I think that the U.S. Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Tennessee-class battleships and the Federation Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser could be considered ships of the line, and pretty important to their respective fleets.

There would be a significant doctrinal difference between the battleships and starships, though. Battleships were supposed to stay in port - any actual deployment would detract from their primary purpose of being menacing, as well as risk their loss or at least unwelcome wear and tear. Starships of the Constitution class in turn were not a "fleet in being" but a "fleet in your face", being run ragged in frontier duty that often bordered on the menial.

Also, Earth is small, and the Pacific is a puddle for an oil-burning battleship fleet; a single major "home port" would make logistical sense for the USN. Would the same hold true for Starfleet, which evidently has at least eleven starbases in the TOS era (the highest quoted number for the era is 27 and we may assume, although we don't have to, that everything from 1 through 27 actually existed)?

Then again, nothing necessitates all those listed starships being present at SB 11. Perhaps most of them were actually deployed on distant missions? We have no idea what this "Star Ship Status" listed there really means, after all, nor do we know the whereabouts of any other ship listed besides NCC-1701.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Thanks to Mytran for bringing up an important point...

In the remastered version of TNG's "The Naked Now", Data discovers the Psi 2000 water/intoxication sickness (TOS' "The Naked Time") while performing a search in the Enterprise-D's database. When Data reports the discovery, the updated data graphic is not of the refit NCC-1701 Enterprise, but of the original (TOS) Enterprise. This seems to put TNG-R in the awkward position of shoe-horning-in a retcon that establishes the TOS Enterprise as a Constitution-class vessel.

Possibly, but there are enough differences in the graphic that TNG-R uses compared to the actual ship we saw on TOS (a horizontal line on the rim of the saucer, window arrangement on the dorsal, etc) that I do not feel bound to take that evidence as conclusive. The ship Data is looking at in TNG-R may be Constitution Class, but that doesn't mean the original Enterprise is

 

[Dukhat]

Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, anyone?

Pennsylvania-class battleships
* USS Pennsylvania
* USS Arizona

Nevada-class battleships
* USS Nevada
* USS Oklahoma

Tennessee-class battleships
* USS Tennessee
* USS California

So, it happens in real life, where every ship of a class is docked at one port.

First of all, the above example shows three classes of two ships per class. We're talking about ten ships of one class (and that particular class being allegedly Starfleet's finest) being at the same location in various states of repair, which would have been sitting ducks for a sneak attack by the Klingons or Romulans.

So either Starfleet didn't learn their lesson with Pearl Harbor, or those ten ships weren't all Connies.

This seems to put TNG-R in the awkward position of shoe-horning-in a retcon that establishes the TOS Enterprise as a Constitution-class vessel.

But TNG already established that in "Relics" when Picard states in dialogue that the TOS Enterprise was a Constitution class ship.

 

[Timo]

First of all, the above example shows three classes of two ships per class. We're talking about ten ships of one class

The difference there is minimal - the US simply didn't build battleship classes greater in number than two, except in years of exceptional budgetary happenstance when a third ship got funding from a surprise source, yet the resulting classes put together were very much considered elements in a dozen-strong frontline force (supposedly) analogous to the dozen Constitutions nevertheless. (We don't know if those dozen Constitutions were identical, either...)

sitting ducks for a sneak attack by the Klingons or Romulans.

Sneak attacks were never a concern when real navies very deliberately put all their eggs in the same impenetrable basket, in hundreds of examples throughout history. Submarine warfare, aerial torpedo attacks and various innovations in the field of fire ships and sea mines were all nasty surprises that upset the balance for a while and resulted in a fleet or two going to the bottom - but such things were rather easily remedied once the enemy revealed his cards. The Klingon and Romulan ability to make stealth attacks is supposedly novel for the late 23rd century (even though the heroes should be well versed in the tactical potential of invisibility anyway, something ENT finally got right), and Starfleet might well have felt safe to concentrate its forces, just like every navy in history has always done and continues to do.

either Starfleet didn't learn their lesson with Pearl Harbor

The USN still concentrates its ships in ports like Pearl Harbor (including Pearl Harbor). There simply isn't any alternative; a distributed fleet would be worse than no fleet at all.

But TNG already established that in "Relics" when Picard states in dialogue that the TOS Enterprise was a Constitution class ship.

Indeed; the argument today should only be over whether "Constitution" is a name applicable to specific designs in the continuum of refits (including the one with the "Relics"-established bridge interior and the one with the ST6:TUC-established exterior, but possibly excluding all others), or a catchall name (applied at least in retrospect, if not originally, for the entire continuum).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[StarCruiser]

Yes, but I think that the U.S. Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Tennessee-class battleships and the Federation Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser could be considered ships of the line, and pretty important to their respective fleets.

There would be a significant doctrinal difference between the battleships and starships, though. Battleships were supposed to stay in port - any actual deployment would detract from their primary purpose of being menacing, as well as risk their loss or at least unwelcome wear and tear. Starships of the Constitution class in turn were not a "fleet in being" but a "fleet in your face", being run ragged in frontier duty that often bordered on the menial.

Also, Earth is small, and the Pacific is a puddle for an oil-burning battleship fleet; a single major "home port" would make logistical sense for the USN. Would the same hold true for Starfleet, which evidently has at least eleven starbases in the TOS era (the highest quoted number for the era is 27 and we may assume, although we don't have to, that everything from 1 through 27 actually existed)?

Then again, nothing necessitates all those listed starships being present at SB 11. Perhaps most of them were actually deployed on distant missions? We have no idea what this "Star Ship Status" listed there really means, after all, nor do we know the whereabouts of any other ship listed besides NCC-1701.

Timo Saloniemi

Precisely - Battleships were indeed "a fleet in being". They were created to fight an enemy battle fleet, not sail around patrolling and watching. The fleet's cruiser force was used for routine patrols in deep waters, with lighter ships used along the coasts.

Battleships had large crews and burned a lot of fuel (be it coal or oil) plus, could be lost in a storm by accident (U.S.S Wisconsin lost her bows during WW2 in a typhoon).

This is part of the reason Franz Joseph called the Constitution class "Heavy Cruisers" in his Technical Manual.

 

[Ithekro]

Okay. All the St. Louis-class light cruisers were all Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. (USS St. Louis (CL-49) and USS Helena (CL-50)) as well as two of the previous class of Brooklyn-class light cruiser (USS Phoenix (CL-46) and USS Honolulu (CL-48)

Two of the seven New Orleans-class heavy cruisers were in port that day as well. (USS New Orleans (CA-32) and USS San Francisco (CA-38) Several others were nearby escorting the carrier task forces between Hawaii, Wake, and Midway.

Note: the moderned light and heavy cruisers of the US navy in 1941 were more or less the same hulls, just with different armaments based on treaty restrictions. A heavy cruiser has eight inch guns while a light cruiser had 6 inch guns. Both were generally around 10,000 tons as limited by treaty. The Brooklyn-class being newer were rather heavy ships with 15 six inch guns, compared to the earlier (and lighter) New Orleans-class heavy cruiser with 9 eight inch guns.

Also there were two out of three of the Colorado-class battleships at Pearl Harbor that day (USS Maryland (BB-46) and USS West Virginia (BB-48). The only reason USS Colorado (BB-45) wasn't there was because she was getting work done back on the West Coast. (The fourth ship of the class, USS Washington (BB-47) was cancelled by the Washington Treaty and never finished).

 

[Timo]

The one variable wrt Pearl Harbor and the like is that the US was at peace that day. Is Starfleet ever at peace? Can it keep its "fleet in being" assets in secure reserve when Federation colonies and research outposts and whatnot are in constant need of care and sometimes have to wait for a full year for the attention they require? Can it counter even devious Klingon plans, let alone those of the resurgent Romulans, if its battleships (Federation class dreadnoughts, whatever) remain idled at Pearl Starbase?

Timo Saloniemi