Burning Dreams
- Thread starter Bobatiel
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This may not be arrogance perse, but telling an author that you won't donate her book to a library because you don't want to "inflict" it on anybody else is, at the very least, as little rude.Warped9 said:
I usually do donate books I no longer want to the local public library. I may eventually do that with BD, but I haven't decided whether I'd actually wish to inflict anyone else with this.garamet said:
Warped9 said:
I'm even considering throwing the book in the trash as a tangible reminder of the money and effort I've practically thrown away. Yuch!
Would you consider donating it to your local library or Goodwill instead?
I'm not suggesting that you should apologize for your likes and dislikes. In fact, you shouldn't. But the way you have phrased your criticisms here at least gives the impression that you believe that other people should apologize for theirs. What you just said about rap music and people who enjoy it demonstrates this. You are not content to say that you don't like rap music; you go on to say that the taste of anybody who does like rap music is crap; I say, their taste is simply different than yours.
Why not? I should think that would be helpful.
Opinions of the "it sucks" variety are useless. On the other hand, critical anlysis by someone conversant with writing is valid and often extremely useful.
Look, what I see going on here is Warped criticizing this book and articulating reasons based on the elements of what makes a good book. This is valid. A book that is all exposition and characterization and no plot is either a failure or an experiment. I rather doubt this book was an experiment, but I haven't read it. Regardless, this is a legitimate basis for criticism.
In response, there are postings to the effect of "to each his own," "it's a matter of taste" and "well that's just your opinion," which are, frankly, useless. Warped has taken this book to task based on the critical criteria with which such works are analyzed. Those who disagree with his analysis should do so on the same terms, otherwise they are disagreeing simply to be contrary.
"That's your opinion" and "to each his own" do not address valid, educated criticism; indeed, they are the hallmarks of the unsophisticated who are unable or are too lazy to think critically. Warped is quite right to dismiss such responses (though I don't know that he did - I would).
That is not arrogance.
My feelings exactly. Warped9, your opinions were a lot more credible before you presented the idea that it was the One and Only correct response to have.David R. George III said:
You know, I have to say that I find your attitude pretty arrogant. You really seem to be concluding that any fans who do not agree with you--who for example actually enjoyed Burning Dreams--are either not "true" fans or are just plain wrong. You also appear to be saying that anybody who likes a Trek book that you do not does not like it for any intrinsic value perceived in the book by that reader, but because they are falling in lockstep with Pocket Books. For me, you undermine your own opinions with this sort of talk.Warped9 said:
^^ Yes, there may well be. Particularly those of the hurt/comfort crowd. Then again I've never really considered them Star Trek fans, right along with the slash fans, but that's my opinion. And shame on me for expressing it. One should remember around here that if you don't by reflex embrace everything post TOS and you accept Star Trek as science fiction then you're not a true Star Trek fan.
Just too funny.
Warped9 said:
^^
Sarcasm really goes under the radar a lot around here. So I'm not politically correct. So what?
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, but whatever, I can see that this is NOT a conversation worth having...
And where, exactly, did I say that? I never did. Throughout I've expressed my own responses to a book I was grossly disappointed with.Elemental said:
Warped9, your opinions were a lot more credible before you presented the idea that it was the One and Only correct response to have.
We're not taking a literary analysis course here. Opinions and personal preferences are valid here.
This comment is just too funny and ironic to even touch. I really like how you ascribe the "valid educated criticism" to the guy who seems to be having problems understanding how to properly conduct oneself in public and that those who are trying to demonstrate some common sense are the "unsophisticated". :thumbsup:
Sure, that can be helpful. But that's not my point. My point is that I don't get upset if somebody says that they don't like my work simply by saying, "It sucks." If I had specifically asked somebody for literary criticism and that was what they offered, then yes, such a response would be useless. But I don't require a detailed explanation of why a reader doesn't like my writing in order to accept it. It is what it is, and I'm good with that. I mentioned this only to underscore that it is not this person's opinion that I find distasteful; it is their dismissiveness of people who disagree with that opinion.
Again, this isn't my point. I'm specifically not arguing about literary criticism.
But this is not what I see going on, at least not entirely. Again, the opinion itself is fine. It is the criticism of other readers that I find arrogant and unnecessary.
Once more, this is not my point. I'm not arguing the critique of the book. I could't even if I wanted to, since I haven't read it. Nor am I attempting to devalue the opinion. What I am doing is saying that the opinion is undermined by adding that anybody who disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about, or isn't a "true" fan, or the like.
Warped9 said:
And where, exactly, did I say that? I never did. Throughout I've expressed my own responses to a book I was grossly disappointed with.Elemental said:
Warped9, your opinions were a lot more credible before you presented the idea that it was the One and Only correct response to have.
Perhaps not in those precise words, but...Warped9 said:
And where, exactly, did I say that? I never did.Elemental said:
Warped9, your opinions were a lot more credible before you presented the idea that it was the One and Only correct response to have.
Again, I have no problem with you disliking this book, or any of mine. Perfectly fine. Criticize away. But it's not necessary to say that anybody who liked a book that you didn't couldn't be a "true" Trek fan. And by doing so, you are doing yourself a disservice, because you undermine your own criticism. Why not simply talk about the work, and not the motives of the writer or the validity of other readers' opinions? Let your critique stand on its own.
David R. George III said:
Perhaps not in those precise words, but...Warped9 said:
And where, exactly, did I say that? I never did.Elemental said:
Warped9, your opinions were a lot more credible before you presented the idea that it was the One and Only correct response to have.
Again, I have no problem with you disliking this book, or any of mine. Perfectly fine. Criticize away. But it's not necessary to say that anybody who liked a book that you didn't couldn't be a "true" Trek fan. And by doing so, you are doing yourself a disservice, because you undermine your own criticism. Why not simply talk about the work, and not the motives of the writer or the validity of other readers' opinions? Let your critique stand on its own.
Actually, I think he did a huge service to other readers like me by describing a book I definitely want to read. I'll take character angst over generic sci-fi adventure and Trek continuity any day.
-Devin
Ok Warped, I know you may disagree, but a lot of us Star Trek fans, myself included, are just as interested in the characters as we are in action. Personally, I actually find myself more interested in the characters than in the characters, some of the time at least. That is why Inner Light is one of my all time favorite Trek stories, because it was a fascinating look at one of my favorite characters, Picard. It is also for that reason that I love Unity so much, because it also had some really great character development.
And IMO, I consider people like me, who like at least some things about all 5 series, to be the true Trek fans. You may be a true TOS fan, which is perfectly fine, but you can't really call yourself a fan of 40 year old franchise that consists of 721 episodes, 11 movies, and more books, video games, and comics than I can fathom, if only like 79-101 of those episodes and maybe 6 of the movies.
And IMO, I consider people like me, who like at least some things about all 5 series, to be the true Trek fans. You may be a true TOS fan, which is perfectly fine, but you can't really call yourself a fan of 40 year old franchise that consists of 721 episodes, 11 movies, and more books, video games, and comics than I can fathom, if only like 79-101 of those episodes and maybe 6 of the movies.
There in lies the problem with Pike. We've only seen him "twice" and for all intents and purposes he and Kirk (At least the Kirk we see in early TOS) are the same character. So to make Pike more than a Kirk clone you need to make him different in some way. Garamet did that in Burning Dreams by using Pike's angt and frustration seen in "The Cage" along with Hunter's more brooding acting style to add some depth and background to a little seen character. Imagine if Spock had been dropped from the cast and the character as seen in "The Cage" was all we had to go on.
I just finished rereading it. IMo it may be The definitive Pike novel for what "made him tick".
Two points:
First, "A book that is all exposition and characterization and no plot" is not Burning Dreams. So, your basis for implying that the book is a failure is flawed. I'd recommend that you read it before deciding it's a failure.
Second, if there's some list out there of "elements of what makes a good book," I'd love to read it, but I think that kind of adherence to formula is a big part of the reason why most media tie-in fiction is not generally considered "real" literature. There is no more a right way to write a novel than there is a right way to paint a picture or create any other kind of art.
Warped, there are at least seven ways you're arrogant...
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