Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[HaventGotALife]

Buffy / Angel crossovers were my problem with what the creators chose to do for the Angel show. They killed Quinn's character for a Buffy regular, Wesley. They refer to Buffy...a lot in the beginning, with a standoff with Faith, and a dream-like episode where Angel becomes human, again.

It was a spin-off. It didn't stand on its own merits. It always tried to be worse than what was done on Buffy. There was a sense they had the original looking over the fence, ready to bring Buffy into LA.

The relationship with Darla, that redeems her, but is to contrast the Buffy relationship (he doesn't lose his soul!) She, of course, is a Buffy character. The fifth season is littered with them.

They were in the long shadow of Sunnydale, and when they left that formula, the show was better, and more grown, than Buffy. For single episodes or arcs. The fourth season the lone exception.

It was like a bunch of actors who are talented but never are allowed to show it because the lead never gets sick and take a night away, allowing their understudies to shine. That's how it felt.

 

[tomalak301]

Wesley was not a Buffy regular. He was in season 3 for only like 3 episodes. Also it is a spin off, so of course there would be references to Buffy. What I liked was those things you mentioned like Faith and Darla got more exploration than anything Buffy could have done. We got an expanded look at this universe and I think the characters did shine, like Cordy in season 3 or Wesley in season 5. Angel was able to stand on its own, which is why an episode like the one in Rome was a little frustrating to me, especially at the end of the season.

 

[tomalak301]

Power Play

That's how you go into a Season (Series) finale. I was wondering about this episode, Angel being irrational and actually joining the circle, but that ending was awesome. So now we have met the Circle of the Black Thorn, the cult on earth's plane that does the bidding for the Senior Partners. Angel has to make them believe he is on their side, leading to I think one hell of a finale. Really liked how this episode played with our suspicions and wondered what the heck was getting into Angel. I also loved how this tied into Your Welcome and now we know the context of the final kiss scene.

Other highlights were Drogyn and Illyria playing XBox, Illyria and Spike together, and just setting up the next (And unfortunately last) episode.

 

[tomalak301]

Not Fade Away

Wow they really did end that on a cliffhanger. I loved that finale, definitely better than Buffy's finale. Everyone had a big role in the fight, and we even got some Vampire slayage, which has been kinda missing this season. I loved Wes and Illyria as Wes was dying and Illyria turned into Fred. Denisof and Acker really were masterful in the second half of the season. I'm really surprised they didn't at least give us a movie because the Circle was defeated and here come the Senior Partners. Also, yeah Connor coming back to help in the fight was a nice surprise and I actually liked where his character ended up, if you can believe it.

Now comes the sad part. I'm sad that this is over. Honestly, this thread has been one of the highlights I've ever had posting here. Sometimes when I do review threads they are pretty much DOA, but this one took off like fire and it was some of the most fun times I've had on this board. It really did make my journey through the Buffy universe special, so I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here who joined the conversation. Like I said before, I did a search to see if there were other Buffy threads (Babylon 5, Farscape, and various other sci fi properties have had multiple threads) and I couldn't find any. This really was an amazing experience, being able to share it with you all and I'm sad it's over. I might keep the thread going if I decide to do Dollhouse but that will be later this summer.

In terms of Angel vs. Buffy, I think I liked the characters of Buffy more and the Universe on Angel more. I've been coming across some of the which is better Buffy or Angel threads and comments (on reddit mostly) and honestly I don't think they are comparable. They are two very different shows that really compliment each other really well. While Buffy focused on the core group, Angel was allowed to really expand the environment and take on the demons of Darkness Giles always told us about in the early season Buffy Title sequence. If I were to choose, I think I would slightly go with Angel, but I don't want to choose.

Season 5 was a hell of a season. It actually felt like the best written and paced season of the 5. Yeah there were a few boring episodes and one episode which didn't need to happen, but overall, I enjoyed a good amount of the shows this season. I'm glad I watched Angel and I'm glad I did this. I'm just sad it's over though.

Season 5 favorite episodes:

Smile Time
Not Fade Away
Your Welcome
Shells
A Hole in the World

Seasons Ranked:

Season 5
Season 3
Season 2
Season 1
Season 4

 

[Turtletrekker]

Just curious. I'm pretty sure I remember you saying that you had no intention of reading the comics. However, we spoiler coded them anyway as to not ruin any upcoming plot twist on the show. Now that you're done, are spoiler tags on comic related stuff still necessary?

 

[tomalak301]

Just curious. I'm pretty sure I remember you saying that you had no intention of reading the comics. However, we spoiler coded them anyway as to not ruin any upcoming plot twist on the show. Now that you're done, are spoiler tags on comic related stuff still necessary?

No. Did Angel and team win?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Yes, indeed they did. And Angel didn't slay the dragon, he tamed it, adopted it and named it "Cordelia".

If I recall correctly, Cordy makes one more brief appearance as a higher power before Los Angeles is restored, but I don't think she showed up in the comics again after that.

Wesley is indeed dead, but Fred eventually finds her way back.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh, and Harmony survived to the Fray era of the 23rd century (and she's not the only one).

Here is the wiki entry for After the Fall, if you're interested in further reading.

https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/After_the_Fall

 

[SAndrews10]

Season 6 plans/rumors: Seth Green was going to return

Here's one site talking about the plans for Season 6 had it occurred...



For a start, there would have been a bit of a reprieve for Fred, either with her personality re-asserting herself (though given the whole 'soul burned from existance' plot this seems unlikely) or Willow returning to help separate Fred from Illyria. Recurring werewolf and love interest for Angel, Nina, would have become a main character and Oz would have apparently returned (discussions were already underway with Seth Green) to appear for multiple episodes as a sort of guide to all things wolfy. And in a similar fashion to the comic, the first few episodes would have taken place in another dimension, as a result of the epic battle with Wolfram & Hart and all the horrors - dragon included - that they unleashed in Not Fade Away.

 

[tomalak301]

Recurring werewolf and love interest for Angel, Nina, would have become a main character and Oz would have apparently returned (discussions were already underway with Seth Green)

I think the whole Nina Werewolf thing would have been a great time to bring Oz back. He would have understood what Nina was going though and she could have had a more recurring role. As filler as it was, I did enjoy her first episode.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I’m glad you liked the ending, not everyone did especially at the time from what I remember.

Watching the Pylea arc recently, I noticed the last scene was a bit of a callback to the “I’ll take the twenty on the left you take the fifty on the right.” bit from Over the Rainbow. Not sure if that was a running gag in other episodes.

Oh, and Harmony survived to the Fray era of the 23rd century (and she's not the only one).

I liked her a lot especially on Angel but I don’t see her talked about much when people talk about these series.

 

[tomalak301]

I’m glad you liked the ending, not everyone did especially at the time from what I remember.

I think the reason I was fine with it was because this series was always about fighting the good fight. Angel already sealed his fate with the prophecy but it seemed like the prophecy didn’t matter to him anymore. The fight never ends and there are always people to save. That was his destiny and he seemed fine with it. In a way it was the perfect ending for the show.

 

[JD]

Buffy / Angel crossovers were my problem with what the creators chose to do for the Angel show. They killed Quinn's character for a Buffy regular, Wesley.

I'm pretty sure Quinn was fired because of his drug addiction, which sadly ended up killing him a 3 years after he left the show.

They refer to Buffy...a lot in the beginning, with a standoff with Faith, and a dream-like episode where Angel becomes human, again.

Well, it is a spin-off, so that's pretty much to be expected. If you aren't going to connect it back to main show, then there's no point in making it a spin-off.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I also really liked Harmony in season 5. Harm’s Way is probably my favourite of the season. Her exit in the series was so funny and so Harmony.

When I saw the finale I was like “Huh?” I recently watched a very recent interview with David Boreanaz talking about the finale and why he liked it because it showed that the group always continued to fight. That comment made me rethink how I saw the finale, and now I really like it.

My ranking:
Season 5
Season 2
Season 3
Season 1
Season 4

 

[tomalak301]

Harmony was a great character in Season 5. I loved the way Angel fired her, which was perfect Harmony in a way.

 

[HaventGotALife]

I enjoyed this, too. I love Buffy, and certain episodes of Angel. "Have you or have you ever Been?" Played in my house because of this thread. Because of this thread, The Becoming scenes I love, made their way into my phone through YouTube. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Buffy / Angel crossovers were my problem with what the creators chose to do for the Angel show. They killed Quinn's character for a Buffy regular, Wesley. They refer to Buffy...a lot in the beginning, with a standoff with Faith, and a dream-like episode where Angel becomes human, again.

It was a spin-off. It didn't stand on its own merits. It always tried to be worse than what was done on Buffy. There was a sense they had the original looking over the fence, ready to bring Buffy into LA.

The relationship with Darla, that redeems her, but is to contrast the Buffy relationship (he doesn't lose his soul!) She, of course, is a Buffy character. The fifth season is littered with them.

They were in the long shadow of Sunnydale, and when they left that formula, the show was better, and more grown, than Buffy. For single episodes or arcs. The fourth season the lone exception.

It was like a bunch of actors who are talented but never are allowed to show it because the lead never gets sick and take a night away, allowing their understudies to shine. That's how it felt.

Quinn was fired for a reason, not just so they could replace him with Denisof (who was himself not much of a 'Buffy character' at the time, anyway), and Angel really does not make *that* many references to the original show. Darla's storyline is not a Buffy reference, it's about Angel and his past and the way it informs/changes his present. Ditto Angel's curse. And, in fact, Spike's storyline, as well. He's a 200 year old vampire with a very specific narrative history that can't just be totally jettisoned just to make his show feel more different from hers. Doing that would've ruined his character.

Also 'it tried to be worse that what was done on Buffy'? What does that mean?

I think the reason I was fine with it was because this series was always about fighting the good fight. Angel already sealed his fate with the prophecy but it seemed like the prophecy didn’t matter to him anymore. The fight never ends and there are always people to save. That was his destiny and he seemed fine with it. In a way it was the perfect ending for the show.

Agreed. Metaphorically speaking, Buffy is a show about adolescence which is why, in the end, after they've 'grown up', they destroy Sunnydale and move on to a whole new life somewhere else. But Angel was always about living in the adult world, finding the meaning you need to get out of bed everyday. Angel's struggle can't ever end because Angel's struggle is life itself. The only end is to stop living.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Season 6 plans/rumors: Seth Green was going to return

Sorry, never actually happened...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr.com/angel-buffy-oz-seth-green-season-six/amp/

 

[Mr. Adventure]

As a result of insomnia and nothing else I was inspired to do the Illyria arc of Angel last night. I didn't intend to go through the whole thing but after a while it's like "it's just two more episodes, sleep be damned...".

One bit of dialog I noticed from Time Bomb:

Illyria: Do you know what you were when I was young? You were the muck at our feet. We called you "the ooze that eats itself". You were pretty at night. You sparkled, and you stank.

The memes are wrong, Twilight was right! She may have been talking about the primordial ooze in general but the "eats itself" and "at night" seems like she means vampires. Just a bit of fun, either way...

 

[tomalak301]

As a result of insomnia and nothing else I was inspired to do the Illyria arc of Angel last night. I didn't intend to go through the whole thing but after a while it's like "it's just two more episodes, sleep be damned...".

One bit of dialog I noticed from Time Bomb:

Illyria: Do you know what you were when I was young? You were the muck at our feet. We called you "the ooze that eats itself". You were pretty at night. You sparkled, and you stank.

The memes are wrong, Twilight was right! She may have been talking about the primordial ooze in general but the "eats itself" and "at night" seems like she means vampires. Just a bit of fun, either way...

The first thought I had when I heard that line was Twilight and I've never seen Twilight.